2009 DC Daniel Carr Silver Eagle Proofed/Overstrike

Theyd never spend time investigating a single coin. If they did that would be a good sign that its time to cut back on LEO budgets since their obviously isn't enough for them to do in order to justify their numbers.




Its impossible to deal with the issue without considering intent and how its being done. Its just not the same as pumping out fake Morgans from China or the Henning Nickels. Just like having a small bag of drugs isn't the same as being the Cartel smuggling them in. If laws were that black and white lawyers wouldnt exist and certainly wouldnt be making what they are now if they did.

But when it comes to being illegal or not it again gets back to what is a reproduction? How do you reproduce something that never existed? The Peace dollar is the one a good argument could be made for, but that would require the government admitting some exist. If every last one was destroyed it never existed since theres no way Carrs could be confused for something that was destroyed.

It certainly does for a several reasons. The biggest would be that you have states and localities legalizing something that the federal government has still deemed to be illegal. If it was grown and sold within that state its further complicated by what exactly gives the federal government the right to have that conflicting law. But the DOJ has acted on people who locally were following the law.

Then theres the issue of legalizing something by inaction when it comes to ignoring small amounts which many places have resorted too. Decriminalization is also something some places have done which is basically just saying its not legal but we arent going to do much about it.

But just like here and like you mention the laws are based on quantity which serves to assign intent to the suspect. Theres people selling with under the required amount, just like theres people who only buy with over the trigger amount to be arrested as a dealer. Intent is what turns it from an ignorable/decriminalized/legal act into a youre going to jail act.

For the record I dont even like drugs but find the absolute debacle of conflicting laws fascinating. I do also realize its highly unlikely the feds are going to step in over simple possession, but technically they could creating a grey area over who really has the right to make such laws in the first place. Its its the feds then the state laws dont matter and they can raid dispensaries at will.

It wasnt really supposed to be a direct comparison, but rather to show an example of a place where the law places a premium on someones intent.




I agree this is by far the strongest argument in his favor.

Oh yes...try buying his 1964-D Peace dollar...

All right, the other thread I posted this in got locked as being essentially a duplicate of this thread, so let me just post this here instead...

Is the argument for the legality of what Daniel is doing that he is using real coins as his "canvas" and altering them rather than creating new coins from scratch? Or is it that he is creating "fantasy" versions of real coins that, due to some minor issue such as the date, never existed and therefore can't actually be counterfeited?

I'll admit that the first argument does seem persuasive to me, at least insofar as the U.S. government is likely concerned. Since it's perfectly legal to deface or even melt down most coins, the government probably doesn't care what you do with an old Peace dollar or ASE as long as your not creating your own and trying to pass them off as legitimate currency. As far as the hobby of coin collecting is concerned, however, I'm still a bit troubled since we all know how many inexperienced (and sometimes even experienced) collectors get duped into buying something they think is rare and valuable only to discover it is actually a fraud. The fact that Daniel's products can now be encapsulated by a major TPG and are therefore less likely to be resold down the line as a "real" coin makes this less troubling to me.

The other argument still seems completely bogus to me. Everybody seems to agree that coins such as the one described in this thread are an evil abomination and that whoever creates or sells them should be punished. But, since the coin in that thread bears an "impossible" date, shouldn't we all just call it a "fantasy coin" instead of an ignorant mistake by a counterfeiter? In fact, how do we know the person who made that coin didn't mess up the date on purpose just to avoid getting in trouble for counterfeiting? If we're going to give Daniel a pass for his "fantasy" coins, I think we need to do the same for any "fake" coin that is, essentially, a flawed copy of the original (whether it be an impossible date or mint mark, a crude design, misplaced denticles, etc.)

GR58 - I have one of these and really like it. But mine is not in a slab. I got mine in a group buy so got it at a bargain. I like having a (sort of) completed year run.

Something I see missing from this entire thread is the concept that anyone who would try to pass off one of DC's coins as currency or legitimate coinage (cashing it in as has been said in this thread) is losing a lot of money.

Counterfeiting is done in order to deceive and make money off of people as victims, not sell them something that if they try to pass it off is real will lose them (a lot of) money. DC is very up front with what he is doing.

What I like about a good many of his fantasy coins is that there is some research and a story behind them. As an example, in 1970 the first Ike dollar was proposed, and I think there was even an artist's image of a 1970 Ike printed in major newspapers about it. So DC made a 1970 Ike by overstamping an Ike. This way we can hold in our hands the closest approximation to the real thing of something that might have been.

Since 1970 Ikes were never made - this specific dated coin cannot be counterfeited. The splitting of the hairs here comes in that someone may argue the pattern has been counterfeited. It is likely the government sees a copy of a pattern, but since they cannot say it is a copy of an actual, dated, US minted coin, the government sees it for the fantasy it is. So they let it go as legal. Personally I am glad to see at least one area where government regulation has not, again, WAY overstepped its bounds.

As to Liberty Dollars - the feds got on this guy b/c his product - thought not even close to counterfeiting any US coins as he was charged (data manipulated in the court by showing equal size pics of a Mercury dime side by side with a Liberty dollar to say he was making copies of US coins), the problem was that the Liberty Dollars were growing in popularity to the point they were a threat to the Feds power/fiat currency. The feds knew if they did not nip this in the bud, their power could be in jeopardy. And when one has the power to print as much money as they want to from nowhere, they are not willing to give it up. Ask JFK.

BTW, the NORFED maker STILL has not been sentenced - a record from what I understand. The feds got their way in shutting him down - that is all they wanted. The feds also scared away people from NORFED on ebay by saying it was illegal to sell them on ebay (although ebay sales never stopped - just lessened from unmerited fear). And the feds also put out the rumor that maybe NORGEDS would even be illegal to own - great scare tactic - it worked. Where I live people used to use them as local currency pretty often. We even had a local vending machine to dispense them. Now they are gone from circulation.

As to DC stuff in general - I have a lot of the fantasy US coins, and I enjoy each one. Its always fun to hold something in my hand (sort of) that never existed! If in the future mine ever get passed off as real currency, the person I feel sorry for is the one who loses all the potential money they could have made by selling it as the fantasy/art/collectors item it is.

The 1964 Peace dollar did exist. That particular coin could be passed off as an original for quite a bit more than it's value as a fantasy piece. It would be relatively easy to find people that are gullible enough to believe some of the other fantasy coins that are identical to circulating coinage in every respect except for date were actually "mint errors" or "limited issues" only intended for mint officials, or whatever. If you doubt that take a look at what sells on ebay for unbelievable prices.

A nice piece - that being said (in order to stay true to the AE lineage) I simply bought an MS70 AE & included that w/my proofs from '86 to date.