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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5251 Posts |
I guess that there is no getting around the fact that with ecommerce, so many things are being sold without in-person inspection, and not many are willing to believe anyone's opinion on a grade or even their own without a slab from a reputable TPG. But, if you are not planning to sell it anytime soon, I see no reason to have your coins slabbed. |
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
I just read a post earlier that really hit home. Once you "crack" a coffin, even if you keep the certification sticker for when/if you ever resell it, IT DON"T MEAN SQUAT any more. So my cynicism went into full gear, with some TPG's inadvertently certifying the really good counterfeits, what happens when you free a slabbed fake? Bound to happen (example I read was just that). What is the real purpose of buying TPG then in the first place. Only thing I can figure is one must really know your coins, the addage,"If you know the original(s), you can know the fake" becomes rule of the day. Personally, It don't even concern me, I can't afford that frivolous luxury on my limited income and two, "Momma didn't raise no fool", priorities, my man. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:with some TPG's inadvertently certifying the really good counterfeits, That's an extremely rare occurrence that almost always get's caught quickly when it happens. It's rare enough that it is about equal to being scared of every step you take because a sinkhole could open up. As far as a TPG grade meaning nothing once a coin is cracked that is for good reason. As soon the coin is out of the slab you don't know what was done to it or if it is still the exact same condition once it was sent in. Unless it's a PCGS secure plus coin or have a TruView you wouldn't even know if it was the same coin or someone is just using a label with it to prop it up. The NGC pictures aren't good enough on a lot of generic looking coins to tell |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10044 Posts |
baseball said: Quote:
Quote:
You need to join a club, which costs money, and you need to renew yearly,
The PCGS one actually saves you money with the value of the voucher being grater than the cost and the NGC one is essentially even money. Yes there is an upfront cost for it, but you recover it with either of them on your first submission so really it is free and the PCGS one saves you money.
Spending money to join means a person is not in possession of that money anymore. Joining is not saving money since there initial outlay is not in my pocket. The future payments of cash also are not saved money. However, If I enjoyed these products and submitting coins was an expense I frequently decided to pay, I am sure what you say is correct. See - my friend basebal... I can be nice when talking about these snake oil...um...businsses ...sometimes  Please - that really was all in fun for a chuckle...  Quote:Quote: The way things are going, any reasonably valuable coin will eventually need a TPG certification to sell at a fair price in a public forum, like it or not. Very true. The internet market is a huge part of the hubby now and nicer coins are now looked at skeptically that are raw Very unfortunate since these slabs have, not meaning to, diverted the focus of the hobby. This has happened in two ways: 1. As has been said - break a coin out and the label is no longer valid - it has to be resubmitted and might not get the same grade at all. So where is the real focus here? Is it on the coin itself or the opinion of the paid expert (who has a different paid expert apply a sticker if he thinks the job was done right). 2. The focus and market of slabs becoming so large has thrown away what used to be the fun of the hobby with every single coin. Nowadays people see collections of a series as (for example) "junk silver" plus a 16-D, 21, and 21D dime. The hobby has been changing - and its not been for the better. The individual coin MMs and mintages no longer mean what they did. It used to be a coin shop would pull out a tray with slots for each date and MM for a series. You could look at several in each slot to determine which you wanted and they were priced accordingly by factual data like mintages, MM, and grade. Yes, more rare slabbed coins still sell for more, but the history of each coin, along with its value, is no linger the main focus and fun of the hobby. As with most things as time goes on, real history is cheapened by commercialism and marketing. Again - its not intentional - its a sad result. Quote:
Any collector who so wishes can learn to grade their own coins with just as much accuracy as the paid "professionals."
Not really, professional graders don't grow on trees.
My wording there was purposeful. As a former teacher I know it is the norm that any competent person who desires to learn about anything will be able to if they apply themselves. Some will need work harder, but that's the human equation. There is nothing special about these graders other than they have taken the time to study and therefore have experience with their specific companies selected standards. We also know different experts from different companies will not agree with each other. I have some acquaintances who were TPG graders and have yet to see either ride a magic carpet to the shop. They owned their own stores for some years, saw the TPGs would pay for graders, and owning a shop was a good credential. After a brief orientation, they were put to work and payed by how many they could get done in a day. This is how these companies got to where they are. How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash? Download and read: Grading the graders Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halveshttps://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2Edited by Earle42
10/12/2017 9:53 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:
That's an extremely rare occurrence that almost always get's caught quickly when it happens. Rare yes, but will probably become more commonplace, and the identification of the fakes that have gotten into slabs has come from specialists in the series, not the TPG's. Once the specialists point out the flaws and identification point to the TPG's they stop slabbing the fakes. (And then typically make an announcement about how THEY have discovered a new counterfeit.) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8137 Posts |
Quote:
I believe one reason was because of what is called PSGS rattlers Rattler slabs are cracked open by people hoping the coins inside them would get a higher grade when resubmitted. It has nothing to do with how well they protect the coin. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1026 Posts |
I was going to send some coins for grading but when I saw one must join the company to get service that turned me off. Having said that I did check into it more and found if you join the ANA you can submit coins for grading. So I joined ANA use to belong I did like the magazine they send to members looking forward to getting my 1st one again. However I like others will not send any coin into be grades unless I know it has a value of over $200.00 then I can see having it graded. But as said I would not send it in unless I thought I may sell the coin I have graded and I do not sell much at all just hoard my coins. The wife says I have way to many she is right but I just love collecting. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1375 Posts |
Quote:
...these are coins that are already certified. Someone else took on the hassle and expense of getting them graded. I am paying for the coin only, not the certification. I understand that you're not paying directly for the slabbing process, but aren't you paying for it indirectly in that the slabbed coin costs more than an unslabbed coin? Or are you finding that you can pay the same price? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
992 Posts |
I can tell you that this active collector has bought over 100 slabbed banknotes in 2017, and I have returned only ONE of them for grade, and another for undisclosed paper damage. The 150 raw notes I've bought in 2017, however, have seen numerous returns for grade, undisclosed damage, deceptive photographs, etc, etc, etc. The TPG item acts as a definite bar to chicanery and error by vendors, where grading is seemingly subjective, counterfeits are increasing, and ethics can be spotty. TPG allows me to basically consider price and eye appeal when purchasing, and eliminates the need for a lot of buyer concerns, at least generally. |
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Moderator
 United States
189502 Posts |
I knew the opinions would range wide.  I should add that resale is not an option for me and it does affect my decision. If I were going to need to resell at some point, then I would certainly prefer certified coins since that is a very real benefit. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
655 Posts |
Quote:paxbrit: I can tell you that this active collector has bought over 100 slabbed banknotes in 2017, and I have returned only ONE of them for grade, and another for undisclosed paper damage. The 150 raw notes I've bought in 2017, however, have seen numerous returns for grade, undisclosed damage, deceptive photographs, etc, etc, etc. The TPG item acts as a definite bar to chicanery and error by vendors, where grading is seemingly subjective, counterfeits are increasing, and ethics can be spotty. TPG allows me to basically consider price and eye appeal when purchasing, and eliminates the need for a lot of buyer concerns, at least generally. I agree with this. TPG has legitimatized the online hobby. There's so much chicanery and ineptitude going on, it's hard to trust anyone. It's worth a little extra for the peace of mind of having a TPG back up the grade. And, they also seem to be pretty well insulated from prejudice- that is, giving better grades to coins owned by bigger clients. As for the OP's question of when to submit, I like to do it when I need to be authenticated. For instance, if I research a variety and think it's right still feels good to have a 3rd party confirm it. And, of course, it's essential for an auction resale. |
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Moderator
United States
189502 Posts |
Quote: It's worth a little extra for the peace of mind of having a TPG back up the grade. I agree. It should not be the only opinion, but still an important one nonetheless. |
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Valued Member
United States
97 Posts |
Sorry, I forgot how to quote a post.
THIS IS 100% CORRECT: "Any collector who so wishes can learn to grade their own coins with just as much accuracy as the paid "professionals."
Anyone who disputes this is uninformed. That is not an opinion it is a fact! I write this from actual experience.
Now here is the dirty little secret. There are new hires in training at at least two of the four major grading services. They are learning the line. Coin grading is easy. What takes YEARS of experience is learning "Commercial Grading" (a coins market value) where value comes in. Of example, that's why an 1884-S dollar that looks like a typical MS-62 compared with common dates in the company's slab is only graded AU!
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Moderator
United States
189502 Posts |
Quote:
Sorry, I forgot how to quote a post. How to QuoteIf you are using the Quick Reply box... 1. Type [qu
2. Paste the text you want to quote
3. Then type [/qu If you are using the Reply to Topic link... 1. Paste the text you want to quote 2. Highlight it 3. Then press the 'Insert Quote' button:  So this... [qu ote]Quoted Text[/qu ote] Looks like this... Quote:
Quoted Text |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6396 Posts |
I'll bring up one point about raw copper coins. I'm not confident about my ability to detect minor defects on large cents and Half Cents. Subtle signs of cleaning or recoloring are therefore a concern. I remember paying nearly $500 for a "choice uncirculated" 1820 large cent that looked beautiful to me. The seller was a well-known dealer specializing in large cents and he had over a hundred raw coins displayed at his table at the Long Beach Expo. His opinion was that the coin was original and problem-free. When I submitted it for grading years later it was body-bagged for cleaning by both PCGS and NGC. I eventually sold the coin at a loss. I don't think the dealer intentionally sold me a cleaned coin. I just think his criteria for originality did not match those of the TPG graders. To me the assurance provided by a no-problem grade from PCGS or NGC is an important factor for making a "buy" decision. I agree that it will be easier to sell your coins for the best price if they are certified (problem-free, of course) by PCGS or NGC. ANACS and ICG are worthy grading services but coins in their holders will typically not bring as good a price as PGCS or NGC-graded coins. This potential difference is certainly something to consider if your eventual goal is to sell. I wouldn't mind seeing some of your coins. Care to post any pictures? |
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Posted 10/12/2017 8:39 pm
