Rare 1574 Paper Siege Coin Severely Damaged By PCGS During Certification

This is a numismatic tragedy and maybe a significant loss to OP (it would be to me as it's far more valuable than several - combined - of the most valuable coin I own).

Unfortunately, the real outcome we all want: that the coin was never damaged in the first place, is impossible. So we're left with second best and worse.


But...

PCGS routinely handles 6 and 7 figure coins. And has many thousands of coins in their care at any time.

This is just a routine damage claim to PCGS. What they want to happen is to confirm it happened in their care, understand how it happened and take steps to prevent reoccurrence. It may be as simple as putting these coins in the "will not encapsulate" category. If 50% have been damaged during encapsulation that's a reasonable step.


Reading the most recent post, OP is playing at being a lawyer and it won't end well.

PCGS will just say "sorry, without examining the slab, we can't determine what happened" and they're done.

OP will not find a lawyer who will take this case, not for the few hundreds or thousands of $s involved.

That leaves small claims court. Where for a couple hundred, PCGS hires a local attorney, provides him/her with the information that PCGS offered to examine the item under their guarantee and the plaintiff declined. At which point my bet is OP loses.

@Hoxsie454,

Thanks for your insight.

I can't prove this but I'm starting to think that PCGS's quality control actually did see the damage and they sent the coin on to me anyway possibly hoping that I just wouldn't notice the damage.

The reason that I am starting to think this is due to the fact that when the coin was sent back to me it was shipped in one of those blue hard plastic PCGS storage boxes. Now, this was a single coin order with a total cost including shipping of $73.05 and I have never heard of PCGS throwing in a free storage box that they usually charge $7.95 for in with a single coin order.

Have any of you ever heard of PCGS throwing in a free plastic storage box in with a single coin order?

So, that honestly makes me wonder if that was some PCGS employee's way of trying to make up for the damage they caused.

That this is an awful situation that should never have happened.

Apart from the terrible tearing, there are other issues:
is the air inside the capsule sterile and/or devoid of oxygen? if not, could moulds start to grow on the paper? is it even possible to get the coin out of the capsule when this would happen? I cannot understand that a serious and responsible company could propose or even agree with the idea encapsulate a fragile object made of paper.

I agree with some of the reactions above that you should try to get your personal damage refunded. But even when this will work out for you, which I truly hope, this does not neutralize the sad point that a piece of historical value has been irreversibly damaged by an ill conceived slabbing action that never should have happened.

I am a collector of Leyden 1574 siege coins myself and have seen quite a few of the paper coins pass in auctions in Holland. Without exception these paper coins are objects of wonder; how a small city, starved and exhausted, without much hope, could resist the superpower of those days: the kingdom of Spain.

Such objects should never end up in slabbed plastic devices, that is how I feel about it.

This is the first time reading this thread, and it is interesting, although very unfortunate.

I would have to agree that PCGS has the upper hand in this. The owner is claiming that damage took place while in PCGS possession and that PCGS wants to attempt and make it right by examining the item before shelling out monies that are due.

However, I am almost for sure certain that PCGS will exchange monies owed for the item itself...in other words...they are going to keep the item in exchange for the money they will pay out. How much? It was stated that it was insured for $1000, but is that what PCGS would pay out? Perhaps. Or they may pay fair market value for the damaged item.

While it is unfortunate that this happened, a similar incidence happened at NGC with a lead coin that the pressure of the four prongs misshaped the soft metal over time and permanently disfigured the coin, the evidence was clear when it was crossed over to PCGS.

Some coin materials simply do not react well to the compressive forces by the TPG'ers present coin gasket materials and designs. I have not liked the prongs to begin with.

Ok, here's the conclusion and how things turned out. I tried but it didn't go well. I ended up keeping the coin as is with without any compensation for the damage from PCGS. If you are interested below is the rest of the email correspondence between me and the PCGS VP of operations (and I know it's very long):

"My Name,

The coin needs to be returned to PCGS so that we can remove it from the holder to determine the amount of the damage. Furthermore, if the damage causes the grade of the coin to change, that would need to be reviewed as well. Just like a coin cannot be graded through pictures/images alone, damage cannot be fully assessed.

I'm not sure I understand your reluctance to return the coin for this process. As Stephanie noted, we are willing to pay for shipping and insurance for both sending the coin back to PCGS and returning it to you. There will be no charge for you whatsoever. This is all part of our standard process for processing damage claims.

I assure you, if your coin was damaged by PCGS you will be appropriately compensated. That said, we are required by our insurance to go through a due-diligence process which requires physical examination of the coin outside of the holder.

Note that we are not compelling you to return the coin to us. It is your choice as to whether or not you want to do so. However, in order to get compensated for damage, this is a required step as part of our due-diligence process.

I apologize if this process causes you inconvenience. As I stated, all of this will be done at no cost.

Thank you,

"His Name"
VP, Operations
Collectors Universe, Inc."

"His Name,

Thank you for your response, I understand where you are coming from and your reasoning but please let me try to explain where I am coming from and my reasoning and my reluctance in sending that coin back to PCGS.

I have spent many years off and on researching and putting together a circulating coinage/token materials set that contains an example of a circulating coin/token made of every metal/material ever used for circulating coins/tokens throughout world history for my personal collection and as a teaching set. Including the coin in question I currently have 33 different metals/materials represented in the set.

The coin in question is a paper coin made of the compressed pages of religious texts during a siege in the sixteenth century and is rather rare and a decent example is hard to get ahold of. It could take me many years and an exorbitant amount of time for me to find and win/purchase another comparable example of a coin from that siege made out of this same material. At the moment even though the coin is severely damaged it is still an acceptable example for the set that I am putting together and will be included.

My main concern in sending the coin back to PCGS is that I don't want the coin to sustain any further damage in that I am not particularly convinced that when you factor in the current damage that the coin has sustained that PCGS can open the slab, pull the coin out, inspect it and put the coin into a new slab and reseal the slab without damaging the coin further. There is also the possibility that just the act of un-sonically sealing the slab and pulling the coin from the holder could split the coin completely in two along the longitudinal axis of the coin so there would be two disks instead of one. If that were to happen, I would consider the coin too damaged and it would no longer be acceptable for the set that I have been putting together. And yes I believe if that were to happen PCGS would compensate me fairly for the loss of monetary value for damaging or destroying the coin but that compensation would not take into consideration the large amount of time and effort that it would take me to track down and procure another comparable example of this coin.
To be honest, the grade of this coin doesn't particularly matter to me that much but the damage does, I am mainly interested in this coin due to the fact that it was a great looking example of the type and the material it is made out and to my knowledge this was the last material/coin that I needed to complete the set that I have been working on for many years.

The overarching reason that I sent the coin in question to PCGS for certification was for authentication and encapsulation to prevent possible future environmental damage. The grade was for the most part incidental for me in regards to this particular coin since this is not a coin that I ever planned on selling but a coin for my personal collection. At the moment I am convinced that even though the coin has sustained severe damage, it will not sustain any additional damage while in its current PCGS Slab. Whereas that may not be the case if I were to send the coin back to PCGS.

If the coin in question were a coin that another comparable example could be easily procured my position would be massively different and I would not be writing this email to you but the fact of the matter is that this coin is not. This coin may not have an extremely high dollar value tied to it but it is a rare and important piece of numismatic world history and nice examples that do come up for sale are few and far between.

In the end this coin is not just a monetary investment for me but also represents a significant and exorbitant time investment on my end as well in that it took me several years to track down and procure an acceptable example of this coin. To be perfectly honest unfortunate as it is I would rather keep the coin severely damaged as it is now then send the coin back to PCGS and run the risk of PCGS possibly accidently damaging the coin further or even possibly destroying the coin with me receiving back a further damaged/destroyed coin from PCGS accompanied with a check and an apology or possibly even receiving back just a check and no coin back at all. But with that being said the coin is still severely damaged and it is not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as when I originally sent it to PCGS as it sits now and I can honestly tell you that I feel wronged in this situation and that I definitely do not feel whole in regards to this issue.

Please consider the above and I hope this helps you better understand my position and my reluctance in sending the coin back to PCGS. Please let me know your thoughts on the matter and please let me know if you have any questions for me. I look forward to hearing from you. Thanks.

Best Regards,

-My Name"

"My Name,

What would it take to make you feel whole again? Based on your description of the coin, it doesn't sound to me as if there was any negligence or poor handling on PCGS' part with regards to the encapsulation of this coin. It sounds more to me like this is possibly something that is too fragile for encapsulation in general.

I cannot offer compensation on a "damaged" item without the opportunity to see the damage and address the accuracy of the grade. If I were to offer you some compensation for this and not correct the holder, PCGS would still be liable to the new owner should you ever sell/transfer ownership of the coin.

I can refund your grading fees and possibly offer some other alternative if you would accept that.

Please let me know.

Thank you,

His Name"

"His Name,

Thank you for your response. In answer to your question: I would consider $700.00 and me keeping the coin as it sits to be a fair amount to make me feel whole again in regards to this issue. Please let me know your thoughts on the matter and please let me know if you have any questions for me. I look forward to hearing from you.

Best Regards,

-My Name"

"From Him

Unfortunately I cannot offer that much without physically seeing the coin. The only compromise I think I can offer at this point is to have you send the coin in and we will not crack-out/remove the coin from the holder (without your direct approval).

The underlying issue is that if the damage to the coin affects the grade, I cannot pay out on a claim as I will be effectively paying off on a guarantee without fixing the grade. Once I have the coin in hand, we can determine if there is a guarantee situation or not (and let you decide how to proceed at that point).

This is really the only compromise that I can offer at this point. Keep in mind that we are 100% committed to compensating you for any damage that might have occurred, but we cannot do so without following the process.

Please feel free to call me if you want to discuss.

Thank you,

His Name
VP, Operations
Collectors Universe, Inc."

"His Name,

Thank you for your response. I would like to suggest a possible alternative, I don't know if this is acceptable or not or just out of the question. But I happen to live just about a 15 min drive from Persons Name (who is on your board of experts) office. He happens to be a longtime friend of a good friend of mine and I have met him in person a few times over the years. Would it be acceptable for you to set up a time/meeting for me or my friend to bring the coin over to him in person so that he can take a look at the coin to assess it in hand in lieu of mailing the coin back to PCGS? Please let me know your thoughts on the matter and please let me know if you have any questions for me.

Best Regards,

My Name"

"From Him

Unfortunately, it would need to be seen by our own graders. The only other alternative I can think of is for you to bring it to a show that PCGS is onsite grading at.

https://www.PCGS.com/shows"

"His Name,

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, there are no shows that PCGS is attending in "in my region", so it would most likely cost more in travel expenses for me to attend one of the listed PCGS shows then I would get in compensation from PCGS. So, that's just not a realistic option.

I do find one thing to be rather hypocritical in my opinion in regards to this issue. Any company that tells me that they cannot use extensive photos and must examine property in hand in order to assess damage. In order to give fair compensation on that damage that was caused while the property was in the companies care. Then tells me that they can determine that they think that no negligence or poor handling was done on their part based on a simple description from an email without seeing the property in person, seems like a pretty staunch double standard to me and a rather hypocritical stance to take.

In my opinion, I personally see at least two instances of possible negligence on PCGS's part in regards to this issue: The fact that PCGS has certified and encapsulated at least two of this exact same type of coin before I sent mine in. So, PCGS has had experience in handling and encapsulating this exact type of coin and neither of the two coins previously encapsulated byPCGS sustained any damage while in the care of PCGS. This means to me that PCGS should be held to a higher standard and that PCGS cannot just not excuse the damage by saying that the coin is "too fragile for encapsulation in general" and should have been able to handle the coin in question without damaging it. The other is that I am convinced that the only way that the coin could have sustained this kind of damage is that either the diameter of the interior ring that was used is too small inside the slab or the coin was forced into the interior ring of the slab or both. Since it seems obvious to me that the damage was caused by part of the coin catching the upper lip of the interior ring and was forced into place causing the coin to separate and buckle.

To say that "Based on your description of the coin, it doesn't sound to me as if there was any negligence or poor handling on PCGS' part with regards to the encapsulation of this coin" without looking at the coin in hand in order to do your own due diligence in regards to negligence. When you're also saying that you can't provide me with compensation for damage without seeing the coin in hand does not particularly foster trust in my opinion.
The fact of the matter is that PCGS did have the damaged coin in hand and PCGS neglected to do anything about it since even a corollary glace at the back of the encapsulated coin would have shown that the coin did not match the TrueView photos taken at your facility and was damaged. So, this means to me that either the back of the encapsulated coin was just simply never looked at by anyone at PCGS after the encapsulation process before it was sent back to me or the damage was noticed and the coin was sent back to me anyway without anyone doing anything to even attempt to resolve the issue. Those are the only two possible situations in my opinion and either situation is an abysmal failure of PCGS's own quality control system.

It goes back to the same thing that I said in one of the previous emails "To be perfectly honest unfortunate as it is I would rather keep the coin severely damaged as it is now then send the coin back to PCGS and run the risk of PCGS possibly accidently damaging the coin further or even possibly destroying the coin with me receiving back a further damaged/destroyed coin from PCGS accompanied with a check and an apology or possibly even receiving back just a check and no coin back at all." I just feel that I have more of a potential to lose than gain by sending the coin back to PCGS. In the end I'm just not completely convinced that I will ever get the coin back if I send this coin back to PCGS and this particular coin is just too important to me for me to take that risk.
Since if "The underlying issue is that if the damage to the coin affects the grade, I cannot pay out on a claim as I will be effectively paying off on a guarantee without fixing the grade. Once I have the coin in hand, we can determine if there is a guarantee situation or not (and let you decide how to proceed at that point).", then if you decide that guarantee situation is declared, you most likely are not going to be willing to give me an appropriate payout anyway unless you can crack open the slab to change the grade and that goes back to the concern that I pointed out earlier in a previous email in that I don't know if that can be done without further damaging the coin. So, I don't really see how I would be any better off by sending the coin back to PCGS then I am right now. It just increases the potential of the coin getting lost and me not getting the coin back.

In regards to this particular coin, the coin as it sits now is still worth more to me than the money. If PCGS wants to make this right with me and make me feel whole again in regards to this issue that would be great but my position hasn't changed. Like I said before, that the materials set that I was building was always meant to be a teaching set. Once I have finished taking photos and writing the write up. I will be posting this set on various online coin forums to show case it and to show people about a relatively unexplored/compiled field of numismatics and I'm not going to lie to people if/when asked about what happened to this coin since it obviously looks damaged but the only question in my opinion yet to be answered in regards to this issue is does it have a fair ending or not.

Please let me know your thoughts on the matter and please let me know if you have any questions for me. I look forward to hearing from you.

Best Regards,

-My Name"

"From Him

I fear that we are going in circles here. I have offered you numerous options on how to get this issue resolved. As I've stated numerous times, just like a coin cannot be graded by photos alone, neither can the damage be truly accessed.

Furthermore, if the coin is damaged to a point where the grade changes, the grade may need to be updated.

PCGS processes millions of coins per year. We have a defined process for handling these sorts of issues. I have given you every assurance possible that if the coin is damaged and/or the grade changes we will compensate you accordingly. Your emails are implying that PCGS isn't taking ownership or responsibility here when that is the direct opposite of what we have been trying to do. The only thing stopping you from getting compensation is your refusal to follow the standard process.

At this point I have nothing left to offer. If you are unwilling to send the coin back for examination, we cannot provide compensation.

If this is still unacceptable to you, I can forward you the contact information for our legal counsel.

Thank you"

Anyway, it is what it is. Sorry for the late reply everyone, after dealing with this situation I decided that it was a good time to take a step back and a break from coin collecting in general.

In the end the coin was just more important to me than the money but I can honestly tell you that I personally just plain don't trust PCGS as a company anymore after this experience and probably never will again. It's not because they damaged my coin. That's falls under the category of things happen. And not even because they didn't compensate me for the damage when I felt that I was owed compensation. It's because PCGS chose to take the ridiculously hypocritical stance in that they felt that they could determine that there was no fault or negligence on their part without seeing the coin in person but they couldn't offer me compensation without seeing the coin in person. I don't trust any company that takes any stance that is that hypocritical. That really just doesn't sit well with me and is not the mark of a trustworthy company in my opinion.

Now, this doesn't mean that I'm not going to buy PCGS certified coins anymore (because I probably will) or that I will never be sending any coins into PCGS in the future for certification (who knows). It just means that I personally don't trust them and I'm not telling you what to think here. You are entitled draw your own conclusions from this and make your own decisions about PCGS. This is just my personal experience.

Pretty much My exact thoughts, the coin would most likely gotten a details grade had the damage been done in the first transfer, which leads me to think that possibly they may have known the coin was damaged and possibly just hopes the OP wouldn't notice (Not stating this as fact, just a hypothesis).


The way I see this, the coin was 99.99% likely damaged by the slabbing process/tpg. I think this shouldn't be a legal issue because I think even the PCGS rep seems to think it was (at least I got that impression from the email transcript).

And what I think should happen is the OP being compensated in some form (monetarily or other) and the the PCGS grade somehow nullified (how? I don't know). That way the OP keeps his coin with some form of compensation, and PCGS "cuts their ties" with this coin.

While maybe not a surprise, I see the OPs point.
This is a case where faith in a company's reputation (earned or not) needs to be questioned before blindly following their policies. Companies can easily use wording to their advantage and often do.

There is absolutely no way, if the quality control is actually what they claim, that this coin could have been returned to the OP without lettign him know what happened.

I guess it was on youtube where I saw a video of the oh-so-careful manner taken at every step in the slabbing process. I remember seeing where make sure to show how they examined the coin/slab at every step to make sure the serial numbers checked out and everything was OK.

The proof is in the slabbed, PCGS-broken coin.

Its ridiculous to think they could not even take the testimony of one of their own board members b/c of official procedure. They obviously must be aware life does not always follow official procedure and so can use :official procedure" to their own advantage if they desire. If sincere in their desires they would be willing to have someone follow up on this as a special case. After all - if they have only handled three of these in past years, they sure should not be afraid of having to make specials cases a habit.

I would think a professional company that actually cares about numismatics as much as they claim would also be obsessed in making sure this horrible lack of professionalism with a historic artifact with which they were entrusted was made right. They do care about their reputation, but also know they have a large enough following that they can afford not to make this right with the customer who should be the one "who is always right."

I applaud the op for using some common sense in knowing that companies (no matter which ones in what area of life) say nice things, but reality might be a whole lot different. When the situation comes out different, they are also good at finding ways to get around them looking like the bad guy to their loyal masses.

I am sure PCGS's own pics they took of the coin being unbroken before damage, and pics of the damaged coin being in a PCGS-touted tamper proof slab would hold up as evidence in court. But PCGS's policy demands more. Sad.

Granted - this is only ONE PCGS mess up. But a company only handling three of a specific item in all those years should have made their "professionals" understand to be EXTRA careful - if they even knew how rare this coin is.

OP, why didn't you send it to NGC?

Hopefully one of these days, there is a show near you that you can attend and have them make it right.