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1859 Canadian Large Cents From The Okiecoiner Collection

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Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 08/28/2021  11:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Thanks to Okiecoiner, for the last few weeks I have been studying and attributing by Haxby numbers his collection of 1859 Canadian large cents. It was a rare opportunity and I really appreciate Bills willingness to always help out those of us who study large cents.

I thought it would be good to photograph and share with the forum members some of the interesting and scarce lesser known die pairs in his collection. I will post photos of one of Bills coins every day or two.

Here's the first one (Haxby catalog # 181), a very hard to find die pair. The reverse, Haxby J11 is a little scarce, with a nicely re-punched 5 in the date. It is most noticeable on the ball of the 5. This die is in the Charlton 2011 large cent section on page 298.

Usually this reverse is paired with Haxby obverse 52, but late in the life of reverse J11 (note the die cracks on the reverse) it was paired for a very short time with Haxby obverse 52a. Obverse 52a has a boldly re-punched CA of CANADA as a primary marker.

If anyone else has a 52a+J11, please post photos!








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 Posted 08/28/2021  12:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It took a long time for him to go through the 700 or so large cents. I had even included the 9/8's in the load I mailed him. He's earned his pay and thanks from Hax for the job.
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 Posted 08/28/2021  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the one I have




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 Posted 08/28/2021  1:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It took a long time for him to go through the 700 or so large cents.


Yes, and I enjoyed every minute of it!


Thanks Dan for those nice photos and congratulations on finding one of the 52a + J11!
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 Posted 08/28/2021  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nfine to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I'm looking forward to following this thread.
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United States
394 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2021  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Check 1960NYGiants's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 1960NYGiants to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice project. Thanks @oakiecoiner for allowing the study of his hoard and @phil310 for the coming data.

BTW: I need that die pair for my collection, along with may more. Curious to learn if any new die pairs are discovered.
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 Posted 08/28/2021  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes, more please
I'm by no means a pro and will never claim to be...just my 2 cents
A smile costs nothing to give or receive....GF
If it's not hockey, it's not a sport
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 Posted 08/30/2021  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will post another of Bill's coins this afternoon. I've still got to crop a few pictures. Was busy enjoying the grandchildren yesterday.


Quote:
Curious to learn if any new die pairs are discovered.

No new die pairs in Bill's coins, but some nice die states that had not been seen by us before.

There is one new die pair coming soon (a recent ebay find), but I will start a different thread about that one in a week or so.

The 52a obverse is a very tough one to find and was paired with 3 very short lived reverse dies, so all three Haxby die pairs (#181, 182 and 183) are great finds. #182 reverse J11a has the nicely re-punched 8 and is shown on page 296 in the back of the 2011 Charlton.
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 Posted 08/30/2021  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This next coin from Okiecoiner's collection is Haxby catalog # 151 Obverse 45a + Reverse J3c. It's another difficult die pair to find. This pairing with J3c is the 7th of 11 reverse dies paired with Obverse 45a.

On the Obverse die The C of CANADA is quadruple punched at the top serif, and by this pairing several serious obverse die cracks had formed. The diagonal crack between the E and I of DEI is a good marker.
https://www.vickycents.com/obv-o45a.html

On the reverse die, as with most J group reverses, the loop above leaf 2 and the stem to leaf 9 are good markers to check in any die state. There is a die crack at leaf 14 on Bill's coin, but no other die cracks. That would make this an intermediate die state not yet listed in the catalog.
https://www.vickycents.com/rev-j3c.html








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 Posted 08/30/2021  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This particular obverse, 45a, was the one used by the Big Tree Coin Factory for the 1859 Chinese counterfeit coins that they produced.
Edited by dan-in-crystal-lake
08/30/2021 3:34 pm
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 Posted 08/30/2021  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I remember the nice article you wrote about that Dan. Do you have a link to that article?

It would be very helpful for 1859 collectors to read it!
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 Posted 08/30/2021  4:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They used that Obv for the 1858's as well, I think, for the fakes. That Obverse also has a couple other scarce varieties. As you well know, I don't use the Haxby numbers or deal with die marriages ... I just collect the old definition of varieties.
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 Posted 08/30/2021  4:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dan-in-crystal-lake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The article was published in the CN Journal Vol. 56 No.8 October 2011, page 498.

Here is a link to the article.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9...GLsIG5QF1Wbw

Haxby hadn't published on the web a complete number set at the time I wrote the article, just groupings. The article references the 7 reverses I found associated with this obverse at the time. Here is the conversion chart for those to the current Haxby reverse numbers.

Rev.1 - I7
Rev.2 - I7a
Rev.3 - J3
Rev.4 - K2
Rev.5 - K2a
Rev.6 - K2b - This is the reverse that was counterfeited for 1858 and 1859.
Rev.7 - J3d or J4

Notes on identifying the K2b counterfeit 1859 reverse:

The Chinese Counterfeit
Will never be a higher grade than seen in photo in the article.
Will not have Vicky crud in the devices.
Will not have 170 years of patina.
Will have a colour that will make you pause.
The coin will look to be softly struck.
Vicky has had a nose job.

The Real coin
Will be seen across many grades.
Will have Vicky crud if a circ. unless the coin has been cleaned.
Will have a nice patina unless the coin has been cleaned.
Will be chocolate brown unless the coin has been cleaned.
The coin will look to be fully struck.
Vicky has her original nose.

Notes on identifying the K2B 1858 counterfeit reverse:

The Chinese Counterfeit
Will never be a higher grade than seen in photo in the article.
Will not have Vicky crud in the devices.
Will not have 170 years of patina.
Will have a colour that will make you pause.
The coin will look to be softly struck.
Vicky has had a nose job, resulting in a bump at the bridge of her nose.
The obverse is exactly the same as that use for 1859.
The reverse has exactly the same die cracks as that found for 1859.
The entire date has been re-cut into the working die using the wrong font.
The T in CENT is missing the upper left side.

The Real coin
There is no real coin for 1858 with any of these characteristics.
Edited by dan-in-crystal-lake
08/30/2021 5:24 pm
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 Posted 08/30/2021  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Isn't it amazing that all of us old CCRS variety guys seem to poke our heads into all the stuff that is now being discussed here. Dan and Rob and Roger and Randy and Mike and the other Bill, among others, have shared many brews together at the T.O. shows and discussed many of the attributes of the 1859 world 15 to 20 years ago. Dan, above, has thankfully somewhat gotten back into coin research and writing and is a great mentor to this site. I had almost forgotten the 2011 article, but found it saved in my old computer files. He did it shortly after we-all wrote the 2011 Charlton variety section.
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New Zealand
1598 Posts
 Posted 08/30/2021  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome Phil310 please keep it up ---the boys are back--
Quote:
Dan and Rob and Roger and Randy and Mike and the other Bill,

No wonder I don't have them --R9,R6,R9,R8,


Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
Pillar of the Community
United States
941 Posts
 Posted 08/30/2021  6:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for providing the link to your article Dan. I enjoyed reading it again. It looks like reverse 7 would be J3d.



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