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 Replies: 31 / Views: 3,988 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5601 Posts |
I have been collecting for a long, long time, like most here on the forum, I have a subscription to, among other things, the Numismatic News, while reading this article in the January, 20 09 edition I have come to an article entitled " Key Morgan profit pays for family car ", I would ask any and all opinions about this " news". It is basically about a collector who gets a $200.00 pile of coins( which he seems to do with this dealer ) on a regular basis and come to find out the collector in his latest purchase, later finds out he has a 1893-s Morgan silver dollar in the pile, he later goes back to the dealer and asks for the dealers opinion on this coin and is told if it is authentic the dealer would pay him $2100.00 for the coin. The dealer is told this person got this coin from his grandfather with some other coins. The coin is sent out to be graded and authenticated and comes back GENUINE, VF details NET F-15. In short he lied to the dealer and had the lower end to return for his opinion, and after all was said, his wife's car broke down and he sold the coin to another dealer for $3150.00 and never looked back. I would like to hear any and all opinions on this subject, while I know I will hear many things, I personally feel that this was not a fair or right thing to do and had the roles been reversed, all he.. would of broke out on how this dealer took advantage of this person. Thanks for your opinions in advance, Mike...  |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Two things: First, I agree with your opinion of the situation. Ethics are ethics in either direction of a dealer-customer relationship. Second, having been published, I suspect this customer no longer has a friend in that dealer. What goes around, comes around.  In an ideal world, the customer would have come clean with the dealer, and offered a cut of the profit, and the dealer would have refused more than a modest share. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
I must admit, I don't quite understand from your description of the story. From what I can gather the dealer sells the collector $200 lots of coins for basically silver value. The collector finds a rare coin and then doesn't sell it back to the dealer for less than what he could get for it elsewhere and also doesn't tell the dealer that the coin came from one of the low-priced lots. I'd say the mistake was in even bothering to take the coin back in to the dealer for an appraisal/offer, because the collector should want to protect his source of coins.
If you have an arrangement with a dealer to sell you $200 worth of silver coins with no obligation to sell any back, then you simply don't ever let the dealer know that he sold you a much more valuable coin in a random bag. That would be the end of the story for me.
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Valued Member
United States
462 Posts |
I am not sure if I am reading this right, but after reading it four times, it appears the dealer made an "offer" should the coin be authentic, but the collector did not "accept" the offer. So where is the question?
Having been part of over 5,000 Real Estate Transactions, "offers", "counter offers", "acceptances" and "rejections" must be clearly defined.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
This is a good question for an ethics class. Let's look at another, similar possibility. My local dealer sells me bulk wheat cents at 5 cents each. I buy from him regularly, picking up 1000 coin bags for $50. My latest bag contains a 1955 DDO in VF condition. I take the coin back to the dealer to show him what I "found". I don't say where I got it and the dealer offers me $1,200 for the coin and I decline and send it to a TPG. It comes back VF25 and another dealer offers me $1,500 and I sell it to him and buy a 52" surround sound, plasma TV so I can watch the Daytona 500. Is what I did unethical? Absolutely not. Is what the chap with 1893-S Morgan did unethical? It absolutely is because he lied to the dealer that sold him $200 in silver. The part about "getting coins from his grandfather" is what is unethical. It's lying. Although is under no obligation to "share" his find, he is morally obligated to tell the truth. Gotta go...it's almost race time! Edited by BH1964
02/15/2009 3:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5601 Posts |
www.numismaticnews.net, January 20, 2009 PAGE #7, and follow-up printed on February 17, 2009 page 6 and page 16, please see the original printed article, some have not a full understanding of this story, and this would help, I apologize, I sometimes have a problem expressing myself and this is not fair to you all, please see the original article. I do agree with bherring1964, I believe you have to story correct and this , IMHO, is not the right thing to do, lie to your dealer, who does make a profit from your hobby but if you have a good relation with some one, IMO, you do not treat them that way........ Once at the home page for Numismatic News click on the viewpoint, at the top and scroll down to the article about the " key Morgan profit pays for family car".....and click on READ MORE.... Edited by Morgans Dad
02/15/2009 3:36 pm
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Valued Member
United States
462 Posts |
What is this "Daytona 500" you speak of? It sounds like a beach in Florida.
Yes, lying is ethically and morally wrong, no question there. I thought the question was, "Is he morally obligated to sell the coin back to the coin dealer?" From what I see, the answer is NO. Am I missing something?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5601 Posts |
MtnCoinMan, I am sorry if I did not state things clearly, I placed this opinion poll to see what people here at the forum think about this article, No the question is not what you said, the question, among others is how right is it to have a on-going relationship with a dealer or anyone for that matter( only this one applies to the dealer ) and not be more forward and truthful and at least tell the dealer what was found in the pile he purchased from him. I also would point out why he felt he had to lie and not tell the truth, did he know this was wrong? IMO, yes. I believe he did and why he felt he should lie in the first place? Also what message does this send out to others? IMO, This was a very deceitful, dishonest, manner in which a grown adult chose to act.In not way am I claiming to be a Saint, or the likes of one, I just feel that this was an improper manner in which to act and would like to get some feedback as to how others feel..... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1691 Posts |
all's fair in love and coins...however, honesty is the best policy. Ultimately you have to able to live with yourself!  Edited by atlashealth
02/15/2009 4:22 pm
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Valued Member
United States
408 Posts |
IMO...He bought in good faith. Paid what was asked. His mistake was telling the dealer anything about where he got the coin. I doubt the dealer paid hundreds for the coin and inadvertently put it in a junk pile of silver. He paid junk price for the coin and sold it the same way. His mistake for not checking closely enough to find it.
Many ifs, ands or buts could be put in here .. that's my opinion.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Original article for the sake of clarity- http://www.numismaster.com/ta/numis...ticleId=6029Edit: Nothing wrong with the premise, the dealer sells them as junk silver so the buyer had a nice cherrypick and was under no obligation to sell back to dealer. However, concocting a story about a supposed grandfather was completely unnecessary and should have been avoided. Edited by biokemist6
02/15/2009 7:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5601 Posts |
BIO, Thanks for your assistance, what no opinion?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I think it reflects well on collectors here to consider the finer ethical points of this transaction.  That said, my opinion is in line with HABIB's, as both parties agreed to the original $200 transaction and once concluded, the collector has every right to do as he pleases with those coins...as should the dealer with his $200. As a bit of a cherry-picker, I've given these scenarios some thought. When I purchase a coin for $X, I consider the transaction done--even if the coin later proves to be worth 100X the agreed price. Here both dealer and collector bring their unique knowledge base to the transaction, and both stand to profit from knowing more than the other. That's how it works. Upon concluding the transaction, it should be tacitly understood that no further obligations exist on the part of buyer or seller--excepting by mutual agreement (such as a return policy). In that light, one might interpret this story in another way--the collector "lied" simply to protect his side of the transaction, where the dealer would have profited had he bothered to do that work himself. In my opinion, concocting such a story is unnecessary, and it's superfluous to reselling that 1893-S. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
Lets reverse the situation. Say our lucky fellow takes his bag of Morgan dollars that he inherited, into the dealer. The dealer, with out doing much, but glancing at the coins offers him melt value and he accepts. Later the dealer discover a VF-20 1893-S in the bag. Raise your hand if you think the average dealer would try and contact the seller and offer him a fair price? My hand is not raised. The only thing unethical here is the lie to the dealer and that was unnecessary. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5601 Posts |
I must say, there are many thoughts to this, and to read some of the opinions of this forum, truthfully, is very unique in that this type of reading is a disturbing topic, lying and deceit to obtain a monetary gain for one-self.I do believe this person knew what he was doing, and made up the lie to strengthen his side and gain an opinion from the very person who, helped him along the way, I mean he was going to him for a long, long time.
My school of thought, I do not need people like him in my life, and I do not care for the kind he represents. Also to have the lower end to write in and tell that story, he is a very special person, just my opinion, ....
PS: Remember the story about the person ( no names mentioned ) that also was so happy that they were given the wrong change from a bank teller, and most were in support of the teller, because there was obviously a mistake.......well, things have a way of making full circle........
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1026 Posts |
He should have not taken that coin back to that dealer at all.
Now if the customer went to the dealer with a junk bag of silver dollars and the dealer glanced in the bag said I will give you spot silver price for these then later discovered his customer gave him a coin worth $1500.00 would the dealer call his customer and say guess what I owe you $1500.00 more "I think not"
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Replies: 31 / Views: 3,988 |
Posted 02/15/2009 1:25 pm
