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1842 Zs 8 Reales

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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
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4883 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2015  12:54 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Collecting this denomination as it was struck during the First Republic requires a recognition that spotty adherence to specifcations coupled with an inherent crudity in production processes means inconsistency is the only thing you can count on. The 1842 Zs pictured here is a good example of this principle.

First off, it's hard to judge its condition because what initially looks to be wear upon close examination seems to more a case of just a really poor and incomplete strike. Also note the relative simplicity of the devices even where fully struck, accounted for by the fact that during this period each branch mint made its own dies, employing engravers of varying ability. Also curious is the seven pointed star. It sports medal alignment, incidentally.

Then there's the issue of how well its composition conforms to the standards set for this type. This specimen is overweight at 27.8 grams, as well as oversized at almost 40mm, and there's a rather matte aspect to its overall appearance, which doesn't inspire confidence (except in that it hasn't been polished).

Now none of this conclusively proves it's not genuine, and it doesn't seem to match up with any of the several counterfeits cataloged by Riddell. But certainly that forgeries abounded in this era (and in fact Zacatecas is one of those reputed to have let authentic dies slip from their control) means you always have to perform due diligence. So I'll have to get around to determining a specific gravity for this one, and someday I'd like to have it analyzed via x-ray fluorescence.

1842-Zs-8-Reales

1842-Zs-8-Reales

Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
10/19/2015 01:33 am
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Numisma's Avatar
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 Posted 10/19/2015  02:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Zacatecas is one of those reputed to have let authentic dies slip from their control

Are any dies from this period known to exist today?
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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
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 Posted 10/19/2015  08:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Are any dies from this period known to exist today?


The story goes that around this time Zacatecas and Durango disposed of well worn dies without canceling them, and that these were subsequently utilized to strike bogus coins of debased composition. If such dies survived, they'd supposedly be in very sorry shape.
Colligo ergo sum
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Numisma's Avatar
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 Posted 10/19/2015  08:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Still, though- that would be quite a find.
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 Posted 10/20/2015  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A rather obvious contemporary counterfeit, one of many varieties for this date/mint. Seems like there are just as many 1842-Zs counterfeits as there are 1842-Zs "regal" pieces. Just from memory, this one (or something with that eagle, at least) pops up rather frequently...
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 Posted 10/20/2015  7:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
contemporary counterfeit, one of many varieties for this date/mint.


Although I purchased this from a specialist dealer I trust (so much so that I was derelict in scrutinizing it, relying upon his deeming it authentic), I'm leaning this way also. The more I examine it, the more anomalies I find, too many to be explained away, even allowing for the variances these earlier issues present. Among the things I've since taken note of that make me suspicious are the dentils not getting all the way out to the edge, the rim pattern being off, and the filled P and 2 A's in the legend.

As it's a common issue even when genuine, I didn't spend a great deal on it. I'll take it up with him the next time I see him, but I may well keep it in any case, provided there is an adjustment forthcoming.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
10/20/2015 11:35 pm
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 Posted 10/20/2015  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, right after my last post, I decided to determine this specimen's specific gravity, which worked out to 8.75 - that's decisive for it's being not real, and so low that you'd have to conclude there's little to no silver component to its composition. As an afterthought, I also checked to see if it was attracted to a magnet, and it's not.
Colligo ergo sum
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wonghinghi's Avatar
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1270 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2015  09:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lucky Cuss, for the first scan of your coin, it looks quite well to me. I take out my coin to compare with yours and find some details are different.

I agree with Realeswatcher that it is a contemporary counterfeit. There are something I am curious to : is the coin made of high proportion of lead? How does it sound like with a ring test?

I post my coin here for you to compare. It is 27.02 grams, 39.2-39.4mm and S.G.10.274

1842-Zs-8-Reales

1842-Zs-8-Reales

1842-Zs-8-Reales

1842-Zs-8-Reales
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Lucky Cuss's Avatar
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 Posted 10/21/2015  5:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How does it sound like with a ring test?


Utterly lifeless, with absolutely no resonance whatsoever - a clad Ike sounds better.
Colligo ergo sum
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swamperbob's Avatar
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5362 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2015  10:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lucky Cuss It is probably a German Silver copy - which is the most common for this variety.

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