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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,721 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2189 Posts |
I have always been told this type of error is impossible because the press could not accept 2 obverse dies or 2 reverse dies at the same time. If that is true how can PCGS authenticate something that is not possible http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWO-HEADED-...AOSwjDZYdXddEdited by jasper62 07/17/2017 4:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2843 Posts |
Strangest thing I have seen. MS65 means that they are considering the terrible condition of that coin to be "as minted". So the question begs an answer- why would that a coin struck with two obverse dies be damaged in such a way? I suspect foul play as well. I have a crazy theory about how this COULD have happened genuine. I am not 100% that this is possible, but I will present it. A coin is pressed and sticks to the obverse die, a second planchet is fed in and the first coin comes loose and flips over on top of it. The hammer die comes down and strikes the coin again on the other side, and the two stick in the bottom. A third planchet enters and is pressed on top of the pile. The result - see above. Now I understand that the minting is so fast that it would hardly be possible for a coin to flip over, but it is the best I could come up with...
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Pillar of the Community
7234 Posts |
The PCGS number is in their database so it's not a counterfeit holder. 
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Struck coin sticks to reverse die. New planchet is squashed between obverse die and obverse of stuck coin.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7641 Posts |
Money does funny things to people.
Inside job that miraculously finds it's out of the mint in an employee's lunch or tool box. It then finds it's way to a willing buyer who then convinces PCGS that the coin is a genuine mint product.
Nothing surprises me!
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
westernsky - It's easy to diss this, but put another hat on - can you conceive of a rational explanation? 
Edited by Coinfrog 07/17/2017 7:11 pm
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Rest in Peace
10197 Posts |
Reversed Die Cap...Was part of conglomerate that fell off and overturned and became picked up for some more hits. Easy!  Notice the similarities of each side, giveaway!
Edited by Crazyb0 07/17/2017 7:35 pm
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Forum Dad
 United States
24182 Posts |
Quote: The PCGS number is in their database so it's not a counterfeit holder. 99% of the time the PCGS number on counterfeit slabs is legit. Just because they're counterfeiters doesn't make them dumb. 
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5324 Posts |
Usually two tale or head coins the grade is not that important, but how can this coin be a MS 65 ?
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Moderator
 United States
34441 Posts |
Very interesting--thanks for posting. I wonder how a struck coin (as opposed to a die) could create such sharp edges to the letters and make them facing the right way and in relief? 
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4596 Posts |
OK people, calm down. Please remove the tin foil hats.
It's being sold by Mike Byers, one of the top 3 error dealers in the US. It's in a PCGS slab which means it was likely authenticated by Fred Weinberg, another of them.
NO IDEA how it could have happened - and I'm with the OP, I thought they had started machining keyways into the dies so this couldn't happen.
But I'm better than Ivory soap (99.94%) sure it's an actual US Mint error coin, even if it likely had some help...
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
From the way it looks it was struck between two hammer dies. The necks on the hammer dies are shorter than those on the anvil dies. This means that at the bottom of the stroke the two dies were just barely close enough together to create part of the design on the coin, and the typical surface marks on the planchet were not wiped out. (That's whey it looks rough and beat up.) Also the coin would not be able to be ejected from the collar because the short necked hammer in the anvil die position would be unable to push the coin up and out of the collar. The press would have to be shut down and the collar removed in order to get this coin out. This almost certainly had to be employee assisted. (If it was struck between two anvil dies the die faces would be closer together than normal and the strike would be very sharp, but their would not be enough clearance after the strike for the feed finger to push the coin away, and it might even be trapped between the two dies after the lower dies rises up to push it out of the collar. It would be possible to remove it though without disassembling the press by slowly rotating the press though a cycle by hand until the lower die is CLOSE to the top of its travel and then forcing down the collar. Would still take manual assistance to remove the coin from the collar.) Quote: A coin is pressed and sticks to the obverse die, a second planchet is fed in and the first coin comes loose and flips over on top of it. The hammer die comes down and strikes the coin again on the other side, and the two stick in the bottom. A third planchet enters and is pressed on top of the pile. The result - see above. Nope. After the three strikes that you describe the bottom coin would have a normal rev and an incuse obverse. The middle coin would have a normal obverse and the reverse would have two images, a raise obverse over a raised but flattened reverse, and the third coin would have an incuse obverse/reverse and a raised and normal obverse. None of which would look like the OP coin. Quote: Struck coin sticks to reverse die. New planchet is squashed between obverse die and obverse of stuck coin. Result would be a full brockage with a raised and normal obverse and an incuse and reversed obv. Quote: Reversed Die Cap...Was part of conglomerate that fell off and overturned and became picked up for some more hits. Easy!
Notice the similarities of each side, giveaway! Not sure what you are describing but I don't see how a "reversed die cap" could result in the OP coin. Quote: but how can this coin be a MS 65 ? Most of the marks you are seeing are the original planchet surface. You need to look for wear and marks on those areas that WERE struck up. If contact marks in those areas are minimal a 65 grade may be justified.
Edited by Conder101 07/17/2017 9:20 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Thanks for these explanations/reversals. So you are saying that this is an inside job and does not deserve a clean TPG slab?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
I've heard of "flip-over" double strikes, but in that case, you should see the reverse at least partially represented somewhere on the coin. I'm with the dual coin strike theory, somehow... 
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
My money's on this being another example of a misbehaving or mischievous mint worker a la the Wisconsin State Quarter extra leaf varieties. I find it highly implausible that such an error could have been struck by accident, and only occurred to one (known) coin, given the speed at which the coins are struck. If other coins had in fact been struck from the same supposed situation, they would have almost certainly been noticed by Mint employees or by the public at large IMO. The fact that an error coin was struck at a United States Mint facility does not automatically make the coin a "minting error"; rather, a "minted error." To me, at least, the distinction needs to be made between accidental and purposeful production of error coin strikes. Of course, I'm not an expert in errors, just a casual observer, so I may be out in left field here, but this is my opinion.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
75042 Posts |
Definitely mint assisted for sure.
Errers and Varietys.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,721 |
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