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Anybody Signing The Ebay Internet Tax Petition?

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edweather's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  08:08 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Got a message from ebay a couple of days ago, and they include a link to a petition, which I'm assuming is against sellers being taxed. Actually, I'm not sure what it's about, whether it's about buyers paying sales tax, or sellers paying income tax. Maybe some one has sorted this out, and can enlighten. Thanks.
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nss-52's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  08:25 am  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
States and local governments want sales tax on things sold to the people living in their jurisdictions, even when sold on the internet by a seller living elsewhere (with no physical presence in the taxing jurisdiction). Since there are thousands of potential taxing authorities, it has long been argued that it would be an undue burden on sellers to have to figure out every sellers tax rate, then submit possibly hundreds of amounts to different governments on a periodic basis.

ebay "cares" because they will lose sellers if it is held that all sales must have tax collected.

https://www.ecommercebytes.com/2018...e-sales-tax/
Edited by nss-52
05/08/2018 08:26 am
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Pacificoin's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  10:53 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As to supporting the petition , it would not do any Canadian or European ebay sellers any good . Most of us with any significant ebay presence are required to collect VAT or GST / HST Taxes already based on the rate of the jurisdiction the item is being sent to.
A few years back the CRA ( Canada's Tax Agency ) won a court case against ebay and records of sellers were required to be turned over to the tax agency. They also recently won a court order against PayPal.
Any significant Canadian seller who is not reporting income or collecting Taxes( and there are many ) is a complete fool and is in for a world of hurt once the CRA is finished with them .
We live in a world where governments of all stripes are flat broke and are hungry for every tax dollar they can find or get through audits.
As stated earlier , ebay would be responsible for administrating the mess , and it would cut in to their profits.
Etsy is already collecting sales taxes for Washington State Tax authorities as well as Pennsylvania from all sellers US and international sellers .
Edited by Pacificoin
05/08/2018 2:41 pm
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T-BOP's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey , I signed it . I don't want to pay taxes on the coins that I buy on e-Bay as I don't want the sellers paying income taxes .This plus e-Bay fees , pay pal fees , postage, That will resort to them raising their already high prices or all this getting some sellers so disgusted that they will be temped to stop selling on the Bay. I feel e-Bay should be exempted from all taxes .
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 Posted 05/08/2018  3:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I see it, the results of this would be a loss of competition, even to the point of entire markets drying up. A lot of the lower value collectibles trade happens through what are essentially hobbyists using ebay as a trading platform. The hassle this will create will dampen a lot of a sellers motivation, especially when it's very part time. I think this makes up a large chunk of the under $10 stuff, and all the random stuff people find and post just to see what happens. ebay is phenomenal for finding odds and ends. If the small guys stop selling, will the big guys care to take over? How much margin do the little part timers have to give to make it worth while?

Winners:

Big business that can deal with the hassle, probably already are.

Software companies providing a solution.

Losers:

Small business
Hobbiest traders who operate small accounts
As always, consumers always lose in this scenario through higher prices or fewer choices unless the local tax revenue is spent doing something the burned market feels is worthwhile (ya'll be you own judges of that).

I presume the local authorities have been convinced they will make more by taxing a market without the small guys, so fewer net transactions, than they are currently making with the small guys paying in a limited fashion. It's a risk they are willing to take. So they want to be in the winners group. Only time will tell.
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Pacificoin's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Collect 82 brings up some valid points about small sellers . I do believe there are exemptions proposed for small sellers .
I have not read the whole proposal in awhile but am certain that there is a threshold.
There is also another part of this that concerns specifically ebay sellers that sell coins and precious metals. In a lot of US States they are already exempt from sales taxes . There is a list of those States found with a simple google search.
Edited by Pacificoin
05/08/2018 4:32 pm
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vonigohcr's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vonigohcr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This gets very complicated very quickly. Different jurisdictions have different rules and it is not reasonable to believe that a seller, even an ebay pro, will understand all jurisdictions. This is not a political statement, just a reflection of the different taxation rules in different jurisdictions.

As @Pacificoin implied, the rule in Canada is that you have to gross sales/income of $30,000 CDN in 13 months to reach the GST threshold... of course once registered, you are in for life even if future sales decline. Thus the comment about "Significant seller".

It gets worse though... the GST rate in Canada is not constant across the country... some provinces have a sales tax separate from the GST... (BC it is at 7%, Alberta it is at 0%) other provinces piggyback the GST and call it Harmonised Sales tax or HST. The rate is different for most provinces.

In most jurisdictions, coins sold as investment don't trigger tax. In Canada, an investment grade coin is a precious metal (Silver at 99.9%, Gold or Platinum at 99.5%) or higher purity. This means that UK Sovereigns which are 22karat (91.67%) or any sterling silver (92.5%) coins are not classed as investment grade for Canadian purposes... in the UK however, the bar is 90% so Sovereigns are classed as investment grade. Base metal or non-investment grade coins are not subject to tax if they are sold at face value... Anyone selling a 1948 Canadian Dollar for $1

Now it gets worse again... in BC, if a precious metal coin is sold for a significant premium over bullion, it is considered a collectible for which provincial taxes are levied. So to get this straight:
- Silver Maple Leaf sold for spot = no tax
- NCLT 99.9% Silver, sold at RCM typical 5x spot = BC Tax @ 7 %
- Circulation coin or Sterling NCLT (92.5%) = GST + BC Tax @ net of 12%
And this is only one of 10 provinces and 3 territories in Canada.

In most cases though, for this to apply a transaction would need to be within a national boundary as the import broker (often the shipper/postal service) is charged with collecting duties and taxes for imported goods. However, sellers need to retain records as they want to be able to claim that they sold $x to offshore buyers so they are not required to remit taxes that should have been collected were the sales to buyers in country.

This is one of the reasons that the ebay worldwide shipping service costs so darned much, it costs to maintain an infrastructure that understands all the arcane tax rules that apply... the last thing anyone needs is for that basic model to apply to in-country sales... i.e. all goods sold on ebay would need to go through a sanctioned shipper for the correct attribution and collection of taxes.

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 Posted 05/08/2018  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
eBay would need to go through a sanctioned shipper for the correct attribution and collection of taxes.


A company that is a partnership between ebay, a postal carrier, and a tax software with ebay essentially doing what it did with Paypal for years in requiring shipments to use it would be widely profitable to ebay and the partnership... just sayin'! Markets itself to sellers as a one stop tax and postage solution, BAM!

While i'm at it, no sales tax states such as OR become that much more adventsgeous to setup a postal forwarding company. I'm sure they alr adt thrive, but a law like this really makes them worthwhile. To a hobby like numismatics where sales tax quickly exceeds a 2x postage rate, there is a market there to expand on.
Edited by Collects82
05/08/2018 6:21 pm
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 Posted 05/08/2018  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Antyhing that is for making me pay more taxes is something I am currently against. I see way too much waste.
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 Posted 05/08/2018  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I haven't signed it yet, but probably will.
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 Posted 05/08/2018  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinCollector2012 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sellers would also have to figure out all of the different tax laws for all states regarding coins and currency. Some states (including mine) exempt coins from sales tax, while some only exempt coin purchases over a certain dollar amount. Figuring out all these laws would be a huge burden on sellers, and only shipping to states where coins are tax exempt will decrease the number of potential buyers.
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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 05/08/2018  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It really just seems backwards to me to charge sales tax based solely upon the buyer's shipping address (not necessarily residence, mind you). In physical sales, tax is determined according to codes for the seller's location. Wouldn't it make more sense to apply a tax that way? I know why it is being presented this way, but it's ridiculous.

Maybe income taxes from selling online should be an amalgamation of all the various income tax codes of the buyers' locations. It's only fair.
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 Posted 05/08/2018  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It really just seems backwards to me to charge sales tax based solely upon the buyer's shipping address (not necessarily residence, mind you).


It's probably not going to happen and if did it would be a lot of court battles and eventually end up in the supreme court for states taxing non residence with no presence at all. Honestly that's pretty unenforceable as well, not state AG is going to extradite their citizen over something like that to another state.

That said, think about why it's being proposed. The 8,000 pound gorilla for online sales gave up the fight against sales tax and would be happy to see everyone else run out of business from it
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 Posted 05/09/2018  12:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only reason ebay is promoting this petition is because they will lose money if tax is applied in addition to all the fees they already charge.
So people who buy, will only bid so much.
Now smart buyers will not only factor shipping costs but also sales taxes on top of the high bid.

Where a widget sold used to be 9 apples ( final bid ) plus 1 apple ( shipping ) = 10 apples.

A widget sold will now be 8 apples ( final bid ) plus 1 apple ( shipping ) plus 1 apple ( Sales Tax )
Still it's ... = 10 apples.

Expect a new fee adjustment on ebay's final bid fees. ( 1 apple )

Sellers will be even more reluctant to get 1 apple less than they used to in final high bids. So more sellers will once again, drop off the map.

Amazon already charges me sales tax no matter what state it comes from.

Personally, I delete ebay messages immediately most of the time without even reading them, but I did read this one.
I don't sell very often on ebay and have no plans to do so. I won't sign it either. I don't sign anything except checks and medical forms.
Edited by TNG
05/09/2018 12:18 am
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spru's Avatar
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 Posted 05/09/2018  12:42 am  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It's probably not going to happen and if did it would be a lot of court battles and eventually end up in the supreme court for states taxing non residence with no presence at all. Honestly that's pretty unenforceable as well, not state AG is going to extradite their citizen over something like that to another state.


I agree, and I certainly hope you are correct. I had a thought before my last post that the problem is attempting to implement traditional tax law in a non-traditional market.
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 Posted 05/09/2018  01:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I agree, and I certainly hope you are correct. I had a thought before my last post that the problem is attempting to implement traditional tax law in a non-traditional market.



There's just really no practical legal way for it to be enforced especially on individuals.

These things have been introduced time to time for MANY years and never goes anywhere. There's so much legal precedent against it and public sentiment against it there's a reason why it never gets very far.

That said people do need to keep making their displeasure against it known to keep it from happening
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