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 Replies: 23 / Views: 1,782 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
This is for educational purposes. I do not own this coin. Please don't cheat and go look it up, that defeats the entire purpose! You: An early copper collector with a modest disposable income but not extravagantly so. The coin: A 1793 Large Cent, S-4 (LIBERTY . / 1793 .) A quite scarce variety that is always heavily collected. It's late at night and you've been watching an Internet live auction house sale all day long and haven't won a single bid. You came in really, really wanting to find a 1793 Chain Cent, but the ones that have come across the block have been overgraded, overpriced, or both. Finally, this 1793 S-4 shows up in a PCGS holder as one of the last lots of the sale. It's in your price range for now, so far. Bidding is relatively active considering the time, and you know you're either going to have to jump in or let it pass and go home empty-handed. You can't see the coin in hand, and this PCGS TrueView is the only photo you have to go by. You have to grade it on the fly and pass judgment on this coin while fending off other bidders; and at this price level, mistakes are a very expensive way to learn a lesson. How would you grade this coin if you were the bidder? What observations would you make about its condition? How do you think PCGS graded and described it?  Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
756 Posts |
i know this coin so  |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
12057 Posts |
I'll admit that I had to study it for quite awhile, which is probably why I don't bid on these sort of coins, even if I somehow had that kind of money, which I don't!
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3848 Posts |
Horrible eye appeal with that color. It likely needs to be viewed under strong light to even see some detail. Corroded, bent, grafitti, can't get much worse than this. VG Details with a hard pass.
I am guessing PCGS gave a straight F-15 or something outrageous.
Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7613 Posts |
A lot of ways this coin can be graded and the biggest factor is WHO sent it in! Common smucks like us would end up with a fine details grade that notes all the problems. Big auction house that "pays the bills" (with a large amount of submissions) would probably see something along the lines of a straight grade VG8 to F12. (Yeah, I'm still a conspiracy theorist when it comes to TPG!) |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Fine Details - Environmental Damage is my grade. Old coppers are an acquired taste. They are cool as heck though, a taste I hope to acquire someday.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Corroded, graffiti was also my first thought. Somebody's initials, like CA or GA. I have no idea what numeric grade to give it. If I really really wanted one I'd probably bid up to 50-60% of the value of one in a similar grade without the damage. Unless it's bent, and then I'd probably skip it. I'm just musing; I don't collect early copper or know much of anything about it.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
3637 Posts |
I've been in the situation you've described. However, this hole in my type collection is still open, as I've been very reluctant to go for coins like this. I'll eventually overpay for a lower grade problem-free example...  This one would be a hard pass - I'd say F details - damage and/or corrosion. If I won this at auction I'd have immediate regrets... |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
This is an interesting challenge, particularly the way you set it up because I would never approach an auction or purchasing a coin in this way. I guess there are times when you end up shooting blanks all auction long and end up with a pile of money you haven't spent. You are then tempted to overbid on something because you spent a lot of time and effort there and don't want to go home empty handed. The auction is set-up to pit bidders against one another and incentivize them to bid more than they intend to bid. I've felt that urge and perhaps bid on something above what I intended, but I try to stick to a structure that begins and occurs way before the auction takes place for the most part.
1. Do I want to buy this coin? Seems basic but this is an important question. Another way to phrase it is: Is this the highest and best use of my money at this time? In this case, NO.
2. Can I afford this coin? Don't overextend yourself. Many auction houses provide cheap, easy credit or payment terms to enable you to commit to buy a coin you cannot afford. I always say no if I cannot pay in full on the spot. If you become a debtor, you will lose all your leverage against a creditor.
(a) What is the most I want to pay for this coin? Set and apply your limit and don't change it.
3. If yes, why do I want to own this coin?
(a) I love it and I want to own it in my collection. In this case, NO.
(b) I don't love it but if I can get it for a good price, I can sell it and have money to put toward something I really want. In this case, NO.
(c) I don't play this game but - I have to have it to raise the score of my registry set. In this case and every case, NO.
4. What is the grade if slabbed or what is the condition if unslabbed?
(a) Is it above, at or below average for the grade or condition implied by the price? Only those above and often far above the average grade for the price merit consideration. For coins, another bus comes along if you are patient unless you are buying rare coins with mintages below 5 known coins. Some people substitute having a CAC sticker to satisfy this constraint. In this case, NO.
(b) Will I be able to sell it and recoup my money if I buy it? In this case, NO.
Why have rules?
It is easy to get overextended and some sellers will try to nudge you into that situation. It is a tactic not unlike those used by drug dealers, car dealers and investment bankers. They are all salespeople. Rules ensure that you end up with a deal that you want, not a deal that someone else wants - against your interest.
In this case I would have stopped at Q1 but went through the whole flow chart for illustrative purposes.
My grade: F-details with a lot of problems.
PCGS grade: F-details with just one of the many problems listed. OK as an outside opinion but for all intents and purposes, not relevant for my evaluation. It does matter somewhat because if straight graded, someone will pay more for this coin that should never be straight graded imho.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/31/2022 02:19 am
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Moderator
United States
15392 Posts |
You have created a stressful auction scenario which I will never find myself in. I did enjoy reading all the thoughtful replies with a special nod to numismatic student well laid out strategy. It would be great for the hobby if everyone adopted that level of discipline in their buying decisions. My knowledge level of these early copper coins does not even approach novice - but I can see and agree with the obvious flaws already mentioned including obverse graffiti and significant corrosion. I would grade at F details with at least one of the problems noted. And no - I would not place a last minute rushed bid. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Pics very dark, but unappealing from what I can see.
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Moderator
United States
34395 Posts |
Well a chain cent is one of the last three holes in my cent collection (although to be fair, I haven't been active in US coins for quite some time), but this one would fit in quite nicely with my others. Not sure on grade though—for sure it has had a rough life—kind looks like it might be a little bent at 5 o'clock on the obv. Maybe someone used this to open paint cans? "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4468 Posts |
The coin clearly has environmental damage. The word LIBERTY on obverse and ONE CENT and chain on reverse do not show much signs of wear, and appear to be in the VF range. I am at F Details ED.
PCGS: F15
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
Looks like something was repaired on this one, several areas that maybe plugged hole perhaps and a straightened bent area? I'm at a details for that for sure, grade? Cant get over fine no matter how much detail is on the reverse. I'm at a Net VG11 (EAC grade) PCGS? Likely a VG10 details doubt this one grades straight just too much going on despite how lenient they can be with colonial era coins and damage.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013! ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2˘ variety collector. See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440Edited by westcoin
12/31/2022 11:11 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36575 Posts |
Hard one to grade from these photos.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Just a note: the coin posted above is not on an auction, I was just using that as an example of how things might not be as obvious when you are caught up in the race.
A number of years ago I was bidding on a choice-looking VG+/F 1814 large cent, bid was pretty low. Great chocolate surfaces, smooth planchet, couple of what looked like minor old scratches, and no corrosion or ED which is a tough find for a Classic Head. Photos were about as good as PCGS Trueview but this was a raw coin. Seemed to be flying under the radar with only a couple of lower bids.
I snuck in a last minute bid at what I thought was a good number and won the auction for a fair bit back of what the coin should have sold for, which should have been a sign. I didn't need the coin, or the variety, but right price, choice looking early copper - yeah, pull the trigger...!
When it came in the mail a week later, I found out the "light scratches" in the photo was actually a carved initial (graffiti) and a couple of degrees worse than "light." Seller had a no-return policy. Oops. Not a particularly expensive mistake (relatively speaking) but definitely made the coin worth less than I paid for it in my opinion.
So I will add to Numismatic Student's most excellent list the following:
- When a coin you want and can afford is up for auction, with limited photos, and the price seems really low compared to what you think it should be selling for, and/or bidders are staying away, the next question you should ask yourself is "why?"
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Replies: 23 / Views: 1,782 |
Posted 12/30/2022 11:14 pm
