1984 Double Die Lincoln Cent

bingo One cannot determine intent when a human being is involved but you can know when a machine does something unintentional. Using capped bust half dollars as an example- that series has many overdates. These typically occurred when obverse dies were left over at the end of the year. Being the frugal mint workers that they were, the die preparers would take last year's die and repunch a new date right over top of the old date- this was quite intentionally done but some would attempt to call it an "error" when it is obviously not such. The 1955 Lincoln DDOs were known before they left the Mint. However, they did not deem them to be defective so the DDOs were mixed in with other 1955s and released into commerce. If you lived in the New England area in 1955, you might have benefited from this "error" but the Mint knew exactly what it was doing. They just did not expect it to set off the searching craze that it did

Without covering ground that has already been covered, I agree with biokemist and coppercoins. The terms are not interchangeable and each term.... error, variety and die variety have very specific meanings and uses.

The consideration is the coin itself and the results on a struck coin as to what each term is applied to.

The fact that a mistake may have been made during the production of a die for example does not make the coin struck an error.

A "variety" is an expected and planned difference like the 1982 Large and Small date cents.

An error is a mishap in the actual mechanical striking of a coin.

A die variety leads back to a particular die or die pair.

Now, I'll drive you nuts:-) If a 1982 Large Date cent is a doubled die and by chance was struck off center, you would have a variety based upon the size of the date, that is also a die variety based upon the fact that the die imparted a doubled image due to being hubbed incorrectly and the coin would be an error since a mishap occurred during the actual minting process causing the coin to be struck off center.

The terms are specific and not interchangeable.

Thanks,
Bill

Well, opinion is opinion, and fact is fact. What I teach is NOT my opinion; it is fact. The terms were created way before my time, and for good reason - because some of us collect die varieties and don't care about errors, and there are others who are the other way around. I am actually offended deep inside when someone calls me an 'error' expert, because I am not. I don't study errors, I don't care about errors, and I don't even like errors. There is a very clear line of demarkation between errors, varieties, and die varieties...and errors are NOT what I do.

The definitions are simple, they are easy to understand, and there really is no muddy water or foggy area between them. They are not identified by intent, they are identified by their cause. End of story. Coins are not errors because they were not intended, they are errors because of the specifics of where the process went wrong. Simple enough.

Die varieties are caused during the die making process. They involve doubling of some sort on a die that was on the die when the die was hung in place to begin striking coins, and the same doubling (although worn) shows on the die until the die is retired. Nothing difficult about that.

Varieties are usually intentional changes in the design on coins during a given issue year. Nothing hard about that.

Errors are generally everything else that is not supposed to leave the mint as coins. Any planchet mistake, striking mistake, or unintentional damage to the die that shows on the coins that occurred during the striking phase. Die wear, die cracks, and other minor anomalies are accepted parts of minting coins and are not errors.

Anyone who didn't understand the contents of this post is welcome to ask more questions and I will make sure I respond to you all the way through until you are crystal clear on which are which, because I know the facts and am willing to share them with anyone without bias or opinion. The only thing you have to do in return is promise to correct newer collectors when they misuse the terms so they can be clear too. As we continue to educate, we continue to work toward clearing up the mud caused by inappropriately written books and completely incorrect statements made by people who are in respected positions.

The reason why so many have given up on true education is because there are so many people out there who claim to know what they are doing but don't have any idea how much damage they are doing over all because they continue to spread incorrect term usage to new collectors, who in turn come here confused because there are supposedly differing 'opinions'. The terms are what they are, they define very different things, and there is no opinion involved.

So...just send an email to me if you still don't understand and I will be glad to help. I'm at cd@coppercoins.com, and am available all the time. I will generally not be around here, so don't assume I will see posts here. I have moved on to other areas because the management here doesn't seem responsive to problems caused by reckless beginners who insist on delving misinformation regularly as cold, hard fact. Their forum is being tainted by misinformation and for those of us who really do want to help, it is frustrating beyond description because the management is unwilling to do anything about it. I'd rather quit than deal with having to continuously and daily correct the same things over and over again.

So just reach me by email...cd@coppercoins.com

If someone is biligerant, constantly wrong, and giving out advice as if they had a clue, I would warn them once, then kick them out in the cold. I have no place in a collective educational setting for people who refuse to understand that if they have no clue, they shouldn't give advice as if they do.

Would you sit tight in a classroom environment and allow someone to take up the class time arguing points about the subject that made no sense at all - day in and day out? I doubt it, and this forum should be handled the same way.

Now I'm not talking about the people who simply answer incorrectly, then add "but I'm not completely sure"...or add, "that's what I think it might be, anyway". I'm talking about the sickening bullyish tone that starts out giving misinformation as fact, then when corrected lashes out against the person doing the correcting blabbering about how each has an opinion and all of them can be right, just to move on arguing other senseless points taking up peoples energy just to HAVE to correct them again in the next thread.

I had a problem with a particular individual in this area and reported it twice. I talked to another forum regular about it, and he had this same individual removed from another forum for pulling the same stunts...basically just arguing to draw attention and blatantly clashing against everyone who disagreed with him just to be a troll.

Wow, that sounds a little bit like me. The difference being that I actually care that people get to learn the right way, and get to understand what they really have. I don't guess what things are, I either know it or I KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT! And if I know it and someone else doesn't, I correct them. And yes, I will disagree with anyone who clashes against me if I know what I am talking about, know that I am right, and can back up what I say.

If I may interject my thoughts, deleting posts would certainly not be the right way to go about it. However, allowing someone to continually post false information does no one any good and is the polar opposite of censorship- anarchy. I think that intellectual dishonesty totally goes against the purpose of this forum which is to properly educate new collectors.

intellectual dishonesty- the advocacy of a position which the advocate does not know to be true, and has not performed rigorous due diligence to ensure the truthfulness of the position

Really?

And I agree with Biokemist...deleting posts isn't the way to go about it, because not only does it not solve the problem (it only treats symptoms), but it can take other people's posts out of context and make a mess of an entire thread that could have some really good content. I only delete posts when they are offensive and have nothing to do with the subject at hand, or have content that could create libel issues. Phone numbers, addresses, etc. are also not allowed. Other than that, pretty much anything goes...even if it's just someone making an arse out of themselves, the post stays.

Statements like this" having to re -answer the same posts over and over because one belligerent fool continues to argue his misinformation as fact."I must say if you are apparently sooo tired of answering questions to us, who take up sooo much of your time with what we as collectors come here to openly ask and learn, thats what a coin collecting forum is, I for one am sorry,not because you are upset and sound feed-up, but you might be more content somewhere else where you(offer your advice) because I know you are a very informed, writer, and knowledgeable person who does give of himself to assist others in this field of numismatics, also I would say you always have had a very unique way of putting your point across to people from beginners to the advanced collectors, IMHO, not a very professional way to say the least. You speak of people hear who YOU have reported, since when is someone, no matter how many times, or how difficult you might FEEL they are asking a question a reportable offense.

I some times think some people, like myself, want to seek the opinions of their peers for other than the "FACTS", you know just people's opinions forget what the books say, and forget what the teacher says, call it going against the grain or call it what ever you want. I am glad this is a free place to ask, and seek advice and not worry about a knock on our doors in fear that the opinion police or the fact patrol will want to question why we ask what we do and when will it stop....

I hope who-ever cares to read this knows something about others or even me for that matter, and if I knew that I was reported, for stating my OPINIONS, please all staff members, contact me , please feel free to allow me the time and energy to address this matter, if not then I will consider the remarks directed to another belligerent fool.
I know people would like things to be different and I would also, that said we do not live in a perfect world and as such we should all be trying to play nicer than we are. I will also state this again and probably will do so at a later date, I feel that most of the time it's not what people say it's HOW they say it, people skills, communication, be nice, remember, we were all taught how....