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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,221 |
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Valued Member
Switzerland
54 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6988 Posts |
IMO looks to be the same coin...hard to duplicate the environmental damage/staining
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
It is the same coin ... the NGC images were probably done long ago right after being slabbed, and the HA images are current because the auction is still running.
We know it is the same coin because of the certification number on the slab.
My question was: Is this coin a silver-plated fake or not, in spite of being in a holder?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5661 Posts |
Are asking if NGC originally authenticated a fake, plated coin? I have no opinion on the authenticity of the coin, but it's hard to imagine that NGC wouldn't have done basic weight and metal testing on a very rare type coin.
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
Here is another example, already slabbed by 2010, so probably not the same coin as the other one, but exhibiting the same kind of porous and pitted surfaces, and graded "UNC Details": https://www.m-dv.ru/catalog/p,37444/image.htmlLike I mentioned before, these were only struck as proof, and only 19 existing coins... Do you like the "Emperor's new clothes"? 
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
  to the CCF!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2023 Posts |
Quote: ...the current bid is only $135 or so And 22 days remaining. This is not unusual.
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
10472 Posts |
The coin is stated as having "Environmental Damage" - I suspect the pitting on the coin you are calling "silver plating that is wearing off" - is due to the ED.
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Valued Member
Italy
284 Posts |
Well.. it wouldn't be the first time that PCGS/NGC slabs fake world coins (even obvious ones). As always the advice is to buy the coin and not the holder.
I personally would never buy this coin as it's detailed and shows those questionale "pits"..
Being part of a named collection, even if it were fake, I would argue that it is good to preserve it as part of the collection itself. As such I don't think we should ask HA to remove it from the auction but maybe an email to them pointing out the issues could result in more info or an update description?
Edited by joe_77 01/06/2025 04:54 am
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
Thanks to everyone for looking and for your replies! After I saw this coin, I have been reading up on different kinds of silver-plating and other methods of "silvering" coins, even dating back to ancient Rome and earlier (see https://www.forumancientcoins.com/d...fourree.html for some fantastic examples of ancient fourree coins). What stands out here is the genuine quality of the design and striking pattern. It would of course be VERY helpful to see the edge on this coin. Although the edge is visible with the newer slab types, it is practically impossible to take pictures of it once it is in the holder. Also, things like weighing the coin become difficult without knowing how much the empty slab would weigh. Since we can assume that the coin was slabbed some time after 2015, they must have been able to do XRF scans ... the weight alone might not reveal whether the core of the metal is silver or not; however, it would have to be extremely difficult to achieve the proper density (e.g. by using an alloy of copper and some heavier metal like lead) and exact dimensions of the coin if it were cast and then silver-plated, due to shrinkage, etc. I am going to assume that this coin was subjected to all of the tests available at the time of slabbing, knowing how exceedingly rare these are, and that the coin passed these tests. At least I hope so! So now I am trying to figure out what kind of "environmental damage" might cause such pitting and flaking? Would overdipping cause this? (EDIT: The auction house (F.R. Künker #258, lot 1051 - you can download the auction catalog as a PDF from https://www.archive.org), who sold this coin before it was slabbed, mentioned in the description "corrosion damage" and condition: "Almost uncirculated, struck from proof dies" - "Min. Korrosionsspuren, sonst vorzüglich/Stempelglanz von polierten Stempeln").
Edited by bobh 01/06/2025 09:53 am
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
Just had a quick look at the NGC Census for this year and type: 1903-AP PF: 5 coins 1903-AP PFCA: 6 coins 1903-AP PFUC: 1 coin 1903-AP MS-63: 1 coin 1903-AP Unc details: 4 coins Assuming that the Ermitage museum in St. Petersburg must have at least one, and GM collection also, that makes a total of 19... (Or slightly more than that?) 
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3467 Posts |
Quote: that makes a total of 19... Not necessarily. It's not uncommon for coins to be submitted multiple times in hope of getting a higher grade.
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Pillar of the Community
Portugal
655 Posts |
A mintage of 19? Someone will have to do research in mint records to find what was struck. It was not uncommon for the era to strike gold or silver plated coins as tests. And a low mintage may mean that. But if you got to 19 from counting Encased Coins then you must be undercounting. Few people want their coins in plastic bricks. The mintage must have been higher. Regardless, if it was struck in very low numbers then understanding why the metal has those flaws requires research about how the very small run was struck.
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Valued Member
 Switzerland
54 Posts |
@jecz79: Quote: A mintage of 19? Someone will have to do research in mint records to find what was struck... Severin has this number in the appendix which was taken from mint reports. All Russian coin references quote the same number. Quote:But if you got to 19 from counting Encased Coins then you must be undercounting. Few people want their coins in plastic bricks. The mintage must have been higher. It is highly likely that this number is not exact. But I doubt that there are more than 1 or 2, maybe five more than 19 at most? As to official silver-plated trial patterns of this coin, I think they would have turned up by now if any existed. I have lived in Europe now for a long time, and while I would agree with your remarks about slabbing maybe 20 years ago, I see many more auctions today which offer slabbed coins. Especially Russian coins, where there are about 10 times as many fakes as real coins today on the market (my impression only.)
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,221 |
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