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One More Oddball Mexico 8 Reales

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 Posted 06/10/2025  12:52 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Looking for any info anyone can share about this 1807 coin. If it was intended to be a counterfeit, its not so convincing looking like copper instead of silver. Weighs 21 grams vs 27. Specific Gravity is more like bronze or copper at 8.7 instead of 10.3 like a silver piece would be.
Has odd square punch marks and is a bit oblong instead of true round. Has anyone with 8 Reales experience come across anything like this? Pics around the edge show much variation in details.




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jgenn's Avatar
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 Posted 06/10/2025  01:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice photos of the edges and it looks like there might be some traces of silver wash there. As swamperbob says, it only needed to pass once for the forger to realize the profit.
Edited by jgenn
06/10/2025 01:28 am
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 Posted 06/10/2025  04:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I did notice those bright spots but didn't stop to think it could be silver wash remains because the fields & devices were so lacking.
I took a closer look.
Thanks for prompting me to pay more attention.
Here's a pic of the castle windows at 100X.
Likely remains of a silver wash.
Edited by Albert
06/10/2025 05:03 am
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 Posted 06/10/2025  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did a review of the GNL Gurney database and additionally on my new expanded GNL variety database in my Facebook counterfeit group (~23 new varieties added from group member addition's) and no matches. It's a Non-GNL listed variety. You can give it the next available GNL variety number GNL# 1807-O: Q/R: Mo TH-008. Additionally - Not sure that is trace mercuric silvering as it looks like a crystallized foreign material which from my research is more likely AgCl residue particles. Seen this before in my studies of GNL and regal 8R surfaces. Specifically - Under magnification, silver chloride (AgCl) on a coin's surface often appears as a whitish or yellowish crust, sometimes with a powdery or granular texture. It can form irregular patches or a thin film, depending on environmental exposure. In some cases, AgCl can contribute to toning effects, interacting with light to create subtle iridescence. Mercuric silvering "never" appears crystallized or flaky (i.e., particles flaking off the main body) as this picture at 100X seems to illustrate.

Microscopic analysis, such as SEM imaging, can reveal its crystalline structure, showing fine, needle-like formations or clustered deposits. If the corrosion is advanced, AgCl may appear as a flaky or porous layer, disrupting the underlying metal surface. Its weight at 21 grams, its crude regal type edge (i.e., Inconsistency in its circle/rectangle shaped devices 360* around - any overlaps - appears there is just one? - need two on near opposite sides), its oblong shape (i.e., broken collar?) and its copper, bronze or low zinc brass appearance make it a solid candidate. I will supply the Facebook link with a J. Buck thumbs up. John Lorenzo, Numismatist, GNL Co-Author.
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 Posted 06/10/2025  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I believe a Facebook link would get removed, so it might be better to send Albert an email with the details.
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 Posted 06/10/2025  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK. Sent E-Mail to Arthur with Facebook link.
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 Posted 06/10/2025  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Closer look at the surface reveals a pattern I've seen once before.
Irregular patches of needle-like marks.
Parallel striations, horizontal, verticle & angular all interecting.


I edited by deleting one image that looked redundant and replaced it with one that looks more interesting.
As far as color goes, I can fuss with controls & settings resulting in widespread variation. I'm just curious about all the intersecting lines at such angles:

Edited by Albert
06/10/2025 10:19 pm
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 Posted 06/10/2025  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AI yields this = Looking at the 100X (?) magnification image, AI noticed irregular patches with intersecting striations and a dominant orange-brown hue, which strongly suggests oxidation effects—likely from copper-rich composition.

Analysis of Surface Features:
Striation Orientation & Texture

The presence of horizontal, vertical, and angular striations aligns with a mechanically worked planchet that experienced rolling stresses before striking.

The needle-like formations could be residual grain elongation from improper annealing or incomplete metal flow during striking.

High-Copper Alloy & Oxidation Patterns

The coloration points to surface oxidation, possibly from prolonged exposure to environmental factors.

Copper alloys can develop intergranular corrosion, deepening micro-grooves and highlighting material inconsistencies in counterfeit strikes.

Die Transfer & Polishing Marks

The counterfeit die likely had manual polishing, leaving randomized intersecting striations that transferred onto the coin.

These patterns are especially pronounced if the die was reworked multiple times, common among counterfeit operations.

This reinforces the likelihood that this probable high Cu struck counterfeit 8 Reales was produced under imperfect metallurgical conditions, leading to planchet preparation flaws, incomplete annealing, and oxidation-driven surface alterations. But again - with enough magnification no surface is perfectly smooth or uniform. IMO this information does not mean very much with just say 100X magnification view under a standard light microscope. More can be gotten from 20X under a stereo microscope IMO <BG>. JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
06/10/2025 10:10 pm
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 Posted 06/10/2025  10:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tried the 20X under the stereo zoom scope and didn't get anything worthwhile. Larger field of view with less detail. Here's one more closeup of a different spot on the coin:

Edited by Albert
06/10/2025 11:13 pm
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 Posted 06/11/2025  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So John, this is another one of those along the lines of what we were discussing in this thread on 2R:
https://goccf.com/t/455808&whichpage=2

where, excusing some sloppiness in execution and some distortion from the mutilation, the design elements are all exactly correct for Mexico 1807 - bust, lions/castles, crown, etc. So necessarily, either a cast - or the theory you mentioned that you, Winston Zack, Jeff Rock are postulating, some sort of early die transfer piece... rather than custom-engraving.
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 Posted 06/11/2025  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not sure that is trace mercuric silvering as it looks like a crystallized foreign material...

Agreed... it's crusted.

Regarding the striations:
Particularly looking at the picture below, seeing how the coloration is slightly different/brighter where some of the more pronounced patches of lines are (esp. the turrets)... I'm sort of wondering if we're not just seeing some sort of old fine wirebrushing.

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 Posted 06/11/2025  12:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Added a few closer to the Lion & turrets.



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 Posted 06/11/2025  6:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher - I wrote a previous SEM/EDS draft study paper that is being considered for JEAN. No word yet on its acceptance which confirms with Kleeberg CCC2R's off-metal alloys utilized on obverse/reverse dies which are regal in their design so hence the transfer die "assumption." Where not sure, can prove or determine what form of a die transfer method created these regal off-metal CCC2R's. But with 100% certainty they are not at a regal silver level (i.e., 90%) and are die struck - not cast based on their SEM microstructure micrographs with 100% certainty. This has never been seen previously in the English/Irish GII or GIII 1/2d/1/4d numismatic series. Yes - pretty certain crystallized AgCl crystals not a Hg/Ag amalgamation residue. This is not a guess but seen this form of crystallization before and verified AgCl with XRF surface verifications on multiple Ag alloy examples.
Arthur - I meant to say just using a 20X stereo microscope magnification in a general way to view a coin to determine if CCC or regal is better than 100X (too much magnification). The coin is struck - what cause these striations I have no other comments than supplied in my AI generated comments in my previous post in this thread. Its a new GNL variety and currently UNIQUE.
Edited by colonialjohn
06/11/2025 6:21 pm
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 Posted 06/11/2025  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's an enlarged view of what looks like black fractures above the turret.
I understand now what was meant about the 20X, I do use a stereo-zoom and manipulate the coin by hand for general viewing.
But these odd criss-cross lines caught my attention further along in the OP after looking for silvering.
Edited by Albert
06/11/2025 7:42 pm
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 Posted 06/12/2025  01:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This thread has become quite interesting and sorry for muddying the waters with my uninformed speculation about silver wash. Albert, I really like those 100x photos from an abstract art perspective!
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