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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,129 |
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Moderator
 Australia
16806 Posts |
Hi all, particularly any Colonial Copper experts attracted to this thread by the title.I was wondering if you could answer a perhaps noobish question for me.
What, exactly, is the face value (or denomination) of a Vermont copper?
Every reference I've read about them just calls them "coppers" or "copper coins", and It's my understanding that "copper coin" is what the Vermont government called them in the legislation that created them. So fine, I'm happy to accept that "copper" is their name.
But what monetary value were they originally accepted for? The "dollar" hadn't formally been created yet, and Vermont wasn't yet part of the US at that time anyway. So I'm assuming it wasn't intended to be a "cent". To my knowledge, Vermont never formally established an official legal tender currency system, but just used whatever foreign coins they could get their hands on. The coppers were the only coins they struck themselves, so there's little numismatic evidence to reconstruct a monetary system.
The legislation that created the coppers also called for the moneyer to post a "£5000" bond, so I'm assuming money in Vermont was typically recorded in British pounds, shillings and pence, and the coppers would be intended to fit into that currency system. Which should in theory make the "copper" equivalent to a halfpenny, or perhaps a farthing if one was feeling ungenerous.
Or was it simply left up top the individual buyer and seller at the time, to haggle over the exact amount of money a "copper" or even a handful of coppers would be reckoned as? Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Moderator
United States
34395 Posts |
Quote:
Every reference I've read about them just calls them "coppers" or "copper coins" Yes and that is what I have listed as the denomination for my example. I'm interested to see if anyone more knowledgeable than I am weighs in on this. Added: while we wait, this is the relevant wording in the Jun 15, 1785 bill that authorized Harmon to coin copper pieces: Quote:
...all coppers coined shall be in pieces of one third of an ounce troy each, with such devices and mottoes as shall be agreed on by the committee appointed for that purpose by this assembly. From the Whitman Encyclopedia of Colonial and Early American Coins, Q David Bowers' commentary: Quote:
Harmon found that his coins, regulated to be the weight of one-third ounce each would be too heavy and would weigh more than pieces of halfpenny size circulating at that time throughout the United States. Therefore, an amendment to the above bill was passed on October 27, 1785 and reads in part: Quote:
...all coppers coined by said Reuben Harmon Jr. Esq. shall be of genuine copper in pieces weighing not less than four pennyweight fifteen grains each, and so much of the aforesaid act that regulates the weight of said coins is repealed. Further added: By my quick calculations, 4 pennyweight and 15 grains is equal to 6.22 g + 0.97 g = 7.19 g and 1/3 troy ounce equals 10.37 g. "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6458 Posts |
It seems like a good source to consult would be:
Carlotto, Tony. The Copper Coins of Vermont and Those Bearing the Vermont Name. C-4: 1998. ASIN B0006QZJNQ
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Coins of that era traded on weight. The issue was that unless the coinage standard was well known and trusted, you didn't know the composition of the metal. That was the reason why Spanish, British, French and Dutch coinage was widely accepted in colonial America through the time of the early United States until 1857. State coinage would provide some assurance that it adhered to the composition of more established coinage so that you could enable fair exchange. If debased and found out, it would erode trust and lose acceptance in commerce. "It was stipulated the coppers had to weigh one third of an ounce troy weight (160 grains)... Not long after minting began it was realized the Vermont coppers were much heavier than coppers circulating in America. Therefore, on October 27, 1785 the coining act was amended reducing the authorized weight of the coin to four pennyweight fifteen grains (111 grains), similar to the Constellatio Nova and other coppers of the period." https://web.archive.org/web/20080101170933/http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/Col...r.intro.htmlIN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
11/24/2025 01:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1656 Posts |
Seems like a simple question but not so simple to answer, entire articles can and have been written about just this. Coppers were just that, a copper. Generally the state assembly would designate the value, XXX number of coppers equal a shilling, and this number varied from time to time and state to state. Massachusetts was the only state to designate a denomonation, the first use of cent and Half Cent. As more and more lightweight coppers went into circulation the value of coppers kept dropping. There was such an influx of lightweight imitation British halfpence and lightweight tokens in circulation the states tried minting or authorizing minting their own of a good weight. Unfortunately, the state coppers were also counterfeited so the problem kept getting worse and worse. New Jersey coppers were among the last to keep some sort of legal tender status in their own state so the counterfeiters would overstrike other coppers with New Jersey designs. The complete mess ended up with the Fugio to try to get some order and standardization but that didn't really work either. Finally the US mint started making cents and Half Cents but it was decades before the coppers were driven out of circulation. Very basic and simplified answer to a complex question. Edited by lcutler
11/24/2025 04:25 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3323 Posts |
Interesting discussion. Thanks to all.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Valued Member
United States
416 Posts |
Great discussion and clarification of an issue that has always confused me. The whole idea of trading based on value of the metal seems so ancient and 'real', now it's all just based on faith.
It's also interesting to consider privately minted coins, where it seems anyone could crank out these metal discs and try to get them accepted at a value higher than the raw metal. Higley with his coppers, ("Value me as you please"), Chalmers with his silvers, Bechtler with his golds, countless others of widely varying levels of trust.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9150 Posts |
Very interesting read and informative , thank you.
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Moderator
United States
187702 Posts |
Thank you for starting this topic. I had always believed they were valued at a half penny or a full penny, but never gave them much consideration beyond that.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5029 Posts |
Good topic Sap. Some great information has come from your post.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
630 Posts |
Massachusetts was the only state which issued standard Guaranteed Face Value ("Federal" denominations) Copper coins from 1787-88. Mike Packard just published his book on Massachusetts Copper Coinage. It's a great read for knowing about this topic...
The Higleys in 1737 valued their early Coppers at Three Pence, ostensibly to pay for the price of a drink at the local tavern, but met with resistance, and thus re-valued them to "...As You Please"
FUGIOs: The Connecticut Mint at Hartford had the Federal contract to strike copper coins for the Government, but the proprietors moved much of that Copper to strike their own CT colonials. They may have been struck side-by-side, as the misuse of the 'F' punch on CT dies is well-known
Edited by Oldgrouchyguy
11/25/2025 09:23 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
In general due to their size they tended to pass as half pence.
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Moderator
United States
94786 Posts |
interesting information here. thanks for starting this.  |
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Moderator
United States
187702 Posts |
Quote:
In general due to their size they tended to pass as half pence. Good to know. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
The Vermont coppers of 1786-1788 were struck during Vermont's years as an independent republic, before it joined the Union in 1791. They were intended to serve as small change, roughly equivalent to a British halfpenny, and circulated widely within Vermont itself. The designs—first the "Landscape" type and later bust types—were distinctive, but the coins were often made from lightweight or poor-quality copper, which affected their reputation. Within Vermont, they were accepted at their intended value, but outside the republic their worth was questioned.
In neighboring colonies and states, these coppers were frequently discounted. Merchants in New York and Massachusetts, for example, often accepted them at two Vermont coppers for one penny, effectively cutting their value in half. Connecticut and New Jersey, which had their own state coppers, were reluctant to take Vermont issues at full value, and in Pennsylvania and farther afield they were often refused altogether. In short, while Vermont coppers were a legitimate local currency, their acceptance and valuation varied sharply depending on where they circulated, reflecting both regional coinage competition and skepticism about their quality.
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Moderator
United States
187702 Posts |
Thank you for sharing that. |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,129 |
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Posted 11/23/2025 8:46 pm
