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Silver Is Silver

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 1,736Next Topic  
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MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  10:49 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been reading and trying to get a handle on silver coins and their value. Please correct me if I am wrong.

1. Silver is silver. So you should pay as little over spot as you can find. Older ASEs are a tad cheaper than current year ASE so would be a better value.

2. Some older silver coins like Silver Maples and Chinese Pandas due in fact go for a premuim because of mintage numbers. Less number minted, more demand, higher premium.

3. There are key dates of ASE and other current silver coins. i.e. 1996 ASE. I assume this is in fact due to mintage numbers.

4. Lastly, you have to be lucky to choose the right coin before they release mintage numbers. Say the 2012 Maple leafs do come in as a short run, the premiums will increase.

Are there any other factors besides mintage numbers that would make a particular Silver coin have a greater numismatic value? I am talking about BU coins, not proofs or "first strikes". Thanks for your input is advance!

Mack
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Williamsonj320's Avatar
United States
538 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Williamsonj320 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also depends if you're talking about bullion or specimen pieces. Bullion ASEs ( no mint mark) will typically always go for a couple dollars over spot. Specimen pieces (with a mint mark, usually W, but others exist, such as the S coins this year) will typically have higher premiums based on mintages and scarcity.

I don't know much about maples but I assume something very similar would apply.
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MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So the specimen pieces with "W" for West Point and I assume "S" for San Francisco are proof coins? You can purchase these from the US Mint or the secondary market?
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wquinn's Avatar
United States
2295 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wquinn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are proof for the S and proof and burnished (satin BU) for the W for ASEs.
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stvsy's Avatar
United States
35 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stvsy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All the mints produce an assortment of ASEs. The San Francisco mint is a bit odd and will mint bullion ASE with no mint mark. Graders will put it in a holder with (S) on it.

Best to check numismedia.com for all the different variety year and mint marks and prices.
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MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  12:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So, the ASE with mint marks are more collectible and hold a higher premium. Gee, the SF mint without the "S" sure makes things more confusing. Also, the WP mint sells both proof and satin BU with a mint mark! So, you can't tell the difference between the SF and regular SAE minted at WP since they both don't have a mint mark! Wow, I can see some shady things going on at the grading companies.

Mack
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The SF no mint mark is for the bullion ones which dont carry a numismatic premium. I'm pretty sure if you want the bullion ones graded you have to send in sealed monster boxes from SF if you want them attributed as a SF bullion one
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clairhardesty's Avatar
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1027 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  1:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add clairhardesty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, once again for the newcomer (welcome MacCoins!):

The mint produces three basic types of ASEs:

Bullion, struck once on unmodified planchets on production presses at production speeds and forces, stacked 20 to a tube & 25 tubes to a box. Sold only to APs at $2 over spot.
The bullion coins can be graded and assigned either a (W) or (S) if they are delivered to the TPG in the sealed mint boxes of 500 coins each. Currently, San Francisco and West point mints issue bullion coins. The die used are not specially prepared and the finish imparted to the coins changes from first to last struck, changing from strong satin to almost brilliant. Average die life is unknown (at least by me) but is estimated at about 10,000 coins. Historically, all three mints (Denver has never struck ASEs) have struck bullion coins, with the mint of origin roughly following the mint producing the proof coins in any given year. For the past couple of years, it has been necessary to utilize the resources of two mints to handle the volume.

Uncirculated, struck on planchets made from burnished blanks (burnishing reduces surface defects, increases die life, and generally improves the finished product). It does not, as many believe, have anything to do with the finished surface of the coins. They are struck at increased forces and slower speeds and individually handled and packaged for sale directly to the public by the mint. They receive the mint mark associated with the branch that struck them, currently both W and S uncirculated coins exist. The die used are vapor sandblasted and hardened prior to use, giving the coins a strong satin finish that is consistent from first to last struck. Average die life is about 3000 coins. While these are clearly special numismatic coins they are technically not proofs because they are only struck once. If struck twice they would qualify as satin proofs.

Proof (including reverse proof) coins are struck on planchets made from highly polished blanks (virtually eliminating surface defects) on special presses. They are struck twice at very high forces and individually handled and packaged for sale directly to the public. Proof coins have been struck at Philadelphia (P mint mark), West Point (W mint mark), and San Francisco (S mint mark) over he years. The die fields of standard proofs are highly mirror polished and the devices are laser "sandblasted". Up until a few years ago, the devices were traditionally sandblasted. The laser produces higher contrast at the expense of some (some would say a lot of) detail. Reverse proof die are mirror polished in the devices by hand and laser "sandblasted" on the fields, to achieve the opposite look from standard proof coins. The reverse proof die are specially hardened and chrome-nitride plated to maintain the desired finish from first to last struck. It is estimated that proof die strike 1500 to 2000 coins and RP die probably strike 800 to 1200 coins before retirement.
Edited by clairhardesty
10/19/2012 1:17 pm
Valued Member
MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Holy cow, that was an excellent synopsis of the minting process of ASEs! The mint mark on non-proof ASEs confused me. So, buillion destined for TPG are the only ones that will have a mint mark. All other buillion that you can buy in tubes of 20 have no mint mark. So, to me, why buy new 2012 buillion when older stock can be had at a cheaper price.

Now, one has to consider if paying a premium for unciculated burnished ASE or proofs are worth it. That is a question left up to the individual prognosticator.

This really does clear up a lot. Thanks again for your responses.
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basebal21's Avatar
13014 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  1:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mac the ones without mint marks are the bullion. The uncirulated will have the W on it. The TPGS will label the mint for the bullion sent in the monster boxes since the box tape will be labeled what mint it was from, but the coin itself still wont have a mint mark on it.

Ive actually seen the opposite that the older coins cost more not the other way around, they were initially cheaper when silver was lower when theyre released but most sites now the current year of issue will be the cheapest.

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MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  4:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Okay, now I think I have it. Thanks everyone for all your help. It is making a lot more sense.
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cladking's Avatar
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2271 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cladking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some coins sell at a big premium to spot and some at a steep discount. These premiums and discounts can change over time. The cheapest way to acquire silver (easily) is 35% Ag War Nickels which wholesale at about 75% of spot. But buying coins at a discount isn't necessarily a good idea since many years ago these traded at 80% of spot. 10 Oz Engleheardt bars used to have a very large premium but now it's mostly gone.

Older eagle near spot are a great idsea but don't forget there's a lot of silver being sold off as scrap and melted so there's a lot of opportunity. If silver prices crash it would be highly advantageous to own something like PR silver Ikes or silver State Quarters since they will retain some numismatic value. Things like nice VG/ F '40-D quarters can be had at spot. As all this silver gets destroyed over the coming years it can cause some scarcity in such coins and they might get a significant premium to silver even if silver continues higher.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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devilsbite's Avatar
United States
86 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add devilsbite to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Knowledge

- clairhardesty


Wow. I hope you have that saved as a text file.

For the newby that has been lurking a while, like me, it's nice to stumble on nuggets like this one.


FWIW I've recently bought a few ASEs and feel the best value is in the bullion pieces first and the burnished W second. I'm bound to get all the UNC Ws before too long as they are far fewer but the bullion versions will come before proofs.

I'll likely get one of each ASE offered yearly going forward. Hope they keep the special sets to a minimum.

If you're buying for silver content only (not mint marked) what are your top 3 contenders other than the ASE?

Me:
1 Maple Leaf
2 Franklin halves
3 From Down Under
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10034 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2012  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Claire, as always, your sharing of your vast knowledge is greatly appreciated. posts like your last one are another reason I really like CCF and the people here.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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CelticKnot's Avatar
United States
12817 Posts
 Posted 10/20/2012  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, clair - for the newbie and even for the avid ASE collector, that's a well-written, detailed refresher. Bravo!
Edited by CelticKnot
10/20/2012 04:36 am
Valued Member
MacCoins's Avatar
United States
96 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2012  12:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MacCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with Celtic. This one thread has answered a ton of questions on ASE buillion, uncirculated and proof.
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