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A New Type Portrait Counterfeit/Forgery

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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2013  10:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Today I received a 1788 Mo FM 8R from a Postal Collectors Society package.

The coin is a counterfeit or a forgery either Class 2 or Class 3. So far I can not be 100% sure which.

So here is the new clue. I believe it can be seen on quite a few eight reales.

There is an old one and a new one. Guesses?

A-New-Type-Portrait-Counterfeit/Forgery
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jfransch's Avatar
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1801 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2013  11:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure what you are asking for but the castle windows are all wrong and the denticles don't appear to go to the edge of the coin, almost looks like a collar around the "ET IND" section.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2013  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes - that is it. The dentils prove the forgery but now the castle windows can also be used as a diagnostic. Until I owned one there was no absolute proof about the "Keyhole and porthole castle."

I have even seen one in an NGC slab.
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jfransch's Avatar
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 Posted 04/11/2013  11:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had a very good teacher
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2013  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gosh, I was late, but I would have mentioned both as well ... we really have good teachers ;)
I would also have zoomed to see if there are casting bubles / extra metal, I see strange marks in the field and in some places.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2013  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob, can we have more pictures of this coin. By the area of wearing, it seems to be circulated for a certain time so maybe a Class 2 counterfeit.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2013  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
By the area of wearing, it seems to be circulated for a certain time so maybe a Class 2 counterfeit.


That is possible but - I do not see the texture shift that should be there. Protected fields show the die surface texture and high points show wear. Weak strike surfaces (when present) can show the planchet surface texture. So on original coins there are usually 2 and sometimes 3 completely different surface textures. This coin is very uniform. TOO uniform. It appears as if it could have been tumble polished. The more I study it the newer it looks.

Here is the best I can do with the surface textures the first at the left is the base of the crown WS (weak strike), the middle is F (field) and the third is W (wear). In person they all look the same.

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Tumble polishing is sometimes done on very poor coins but the result always looks like a cast fake. In this case the edge does not share the identical texture so I think I can rule out tumble polishing.

The edge is rather faintly applied and was done in one pass. There is one overlap and the depth of the impression tails off getting thinner as it goes as if there were no springs supplying pressure to the edging die itself. As the blank rolls through the edger the diameter reduces this has to be compensated for. The earliest edgers had a tightening screw drive but some later edgers seem to employ a spring.

The edge dies were made with a two segment die punch which is wrong for the 1780's. It results in many of the circles being flattened on one side by the application of the next punch. The punch which did vary in length always ends with a rectangle not a circle.

I am at this point going to classify it as a Class 3 modern forgery using a transfer technology to produce the dies. In three protected areas I did find mint luster and flow lines associated with striking.

The die surfaces are rough typical of the transfer method employed. Since that step does involve casting (to create the die) it is important to look for signs that can distinguish strikes from cast dies from cast copies made from cast molds.

But at least every time I see the keyhole window I KNOW and you know the coin is a modern fake.


A-New-Type-Portrait-Counterfeit/Forgery

Now I have to track down that graded copy.
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 Posted 04/12/2013  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The goofy keyhole castle window links back to this thread:
https://goccf.com/t/142623

I still don't have access to my other pics on the desktop, which I know include some others, but a quick search yields these... Just taking a quick look, will compare diagnostics later - Based on appearance, the sources they emanate from, and other pieces they may be offered with, most or all of the goofy window pieces I've come across are what I assume to be recent vintage fakes. At least a few or maybe most of this batch fall into that category... That includes Bob's piece (#1) and the Postal Commem piece (#2#), which appear to be twins (and not the same specimen)... However, it would be hard to believe that at least Piece #3 didn't see honest circulation.
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tokenmast's Avatar
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648 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2013  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You Sifu swamperbob






Sifu (Cantonese) or shīfu (Mandarin) is the identical pronunciation of two Chinese terms for a master: 師. and 師父. The character 師 means "teacher", while the meaning of . is "tutor" and the meaning of 父 is "father". Both characters are read fu with the same tones in Cantonese and Mandarin, creating some ambiguity. A similar term often used in Chinese is 老師 (Cantonese lou5 si1, Mandarin lǎoshī), meaning "teacher".

wiki
Edited by tokenmast
04/12/2013 1:47 pm
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2013  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hope that doesn't imply that your day job is Chinese fake coin maker...
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tokenmast's Avatar
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648 Posts
 Posted 04/12/2013  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher

Nice group of windows !

Day job making Scroffing tools.
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2013  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Reales watcher - the first two are the same coin. I didn't bid high enough the first time and I paid far too much the second time it appeared but I got one finally.

The window "goofy" or "Keyhole/porthole" are a feature that I first noticed and started tracking while I was writing the book and I realized that punch variety was the way to isolate dies and die groups.

I had really wanted to do the Lions but the Castles have always been less interesting in general and that is where a forger is least likely to get it right. Who really looks at how the blocks are arranged or where the widows are?

Here are some random castles. The first is the "Castle that Jack built". He was no master mason.

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I call the two at the left "Notch" castles from the notch in the corner of the window on the right side.

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But my castle study began back with my first one the Broken castle. The break is on the left side under the window it crosses the entire width to the door and moved down as it travels right.


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This is the earliest dated example with the break just starting. This castle is only seen on Potosi coins BUT THEY ARE FAKES.

The more I get into it - the more castle varieties I see.

So I guess right now I am going into Real Estate buying castles so I can be sure which varieties are real and which are not.

Every feature on a coin made from multiple punched dies can be treated in the same way. Pick your favorite element and see where it goes.

Not all of the identifiable punches are counterfeit - part of the process is identifying which punch chip is real and which is not.

That was why I was so happy to finally win one of the Keyhole window types.
Edited by swamperbob
04/12/2013 7:50 pm
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wonghinghi's Avatar
Hong Kong
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 Posted 04/13/2013  12:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob:

Quote:
I am at this point going to classify it as a Class 3 modern forgery using a transfer technology to produce the dies.

Is it best to do a SG to further confirm it is a Class 3 forgery?

Also the pictures provided by realeswatcher don't have a silver lustre, a SG test will be useful to confirm they are Class 2 or Class 3.

The following 1788 specimen was bought in Hong Kong a few years ago and is taken out for investigation this morning. Some Chinese character chops are found on the reverse side. S.G. 10.193 (81.3%Ag), 26.92 grams, 38.3-38.7 mm (?too small). I don't think this is an original for the reasons of size is too small, no two opposite edge overlap. But it passed the old moneyer's assessment(chops present) so it should be a Class 2 Counterfeit. Do you agree? Pictures below:
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One clear overlap below:
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swamperbob's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2013  02:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is it best to do a SG to further confirm it is a Class 3 forgery?


Specific Gravity can determine silver content BUT NOT the age of a forgery. A Class 3 forgery can be made with no silver at all or can be pure silver. The better numismatic forgeries will be silver because the base metal copies do not fool collectors anymore. However, silver content is not a factor in a Class 3 forgery.

Silver content is, on the other hand a very specific determining factor for a Class 2 Counterfeit. Class 2 coins are the silver forgeries made before 1930 that did actually circulate as silver bullion coins. The issue of silver content in a Class 2 coin is critical because to be successful a Class 2 counterfeit had to pass the tests of the schroff's.

Testing methodologies used by the schroff's DID CHANGE over time and each change caused a response by the counterfeiters.

Prior to 1830 the Schroff's used weight, size, ring, color and rubbing on certain surfaces as primary determinants as to the acceptability of a coin. That meant counterfeiters could easily reduce silver content and get away with it provided they did not take out too much silver and they pickled the finished product to reduce surface copper by leaching with acid. So in that period of time (pre-1830), silver counterfeits using as little as 700 fine silver could pass as real. The schroff's apparently did not use the actual designs as a criteria.

(In the US, the mints used fire assay and specific gravity to test silver as early as 1794. They also introduced design comparison as a methodology before 1830.)

Counterfeits under 700 fine were easily detectable by these cruder methods and are classified as Class 1 counterfeits.

About 1830-1835 Chinese authorities were advised by the British that the silver counterfeits (restrikes) circulating in Canton were significantly debased. So to improve standards in the circulating coins, the Chinese introduced Specific Gravity testing as part of the standard analysis.

Silver below 850 fine can be accurately and quickly detected by SG alone. (Schroff's did need accurate quick and non-destructive test methods and SG did the trick.) This change in testing methods caused the counterfeiters to respond and raise their silver content above 850 fine.

By 1870 testing standards using acid tests and other chemical assay methods resulted in counterfeiters improving their alloy to 900 fine.

These three periods can in some cases also be confirmed by the trace contents of gold found in the coins. The higher the trace of gold the EARLIER the counterfeit (or original coin). In 1830, gold up to 2% of total weight could be present as a contaminant in silver. By 1870, this had been improved to 0.2%. By 1930 (the end of the Class 2 era) the trace of gold was under 0.02%.

So I hope that explains the distinction between the Class 2 silver counterfeits and the Class 3 numismatic forgeries.

As to the 1788 coin shown last, the edge does have the characteristics of a Class 2 coin. The coin seems to have actually circulated so it is logical to consider that it could be Class 2. However, nothing proves what Class it belongs in.

The SG test result of about 80% silver is near the dividing line of the introduction of SG testing in China. At this point XRF testing could help to get a clearer picture of when it was made.

In addition, you need to look at the design of the coin at this point to determine how the dies or molds were made.

From the edge, you can see there is only one overlap that occurs between the AR of CAROLUS. From the top of the King's head to the GR in GRATIA there are grip marks diagonal cuts in the edge that appear mostly on the portion of the edge closest to the face, they are roughly parallel and they cross about 1/2 to 3/4ths of the edge width. These same diagonals are NOT seen on the rest of the edge.

That is a classic "Boston" type forgery made by the counterfeiting ring that operated near Boston, Mass until about 1930.

The coin appears die struck which is consistant with most class 2 coins.

The alpha-numeric fonts used in the dies are regal in all respects. The alignment of the letters, spacings and angular positions of the letters are also correct. The elemental designs in the shield are correct and regal in style.

This leads me to the belief that a transfer technology of some type was used to make the image on the dies or molds.

There is no absolute proof either way of the priority in edging visible. So the decision on strike versus cast must be made based on a microscopic analysis of flow and erosion lines in protected surface areas.

So we are left with an open issue. Is the coin a strike or cast item? Molds used to make a forged coin usually require post strike edging to cover up seams, sprue and vent.

If the edge is applied first the coin must be a strike.

The surface texture transferred to the finished coin can at times infer the type of matrix material used to make the cast. In the 1820's sand casts were still normal but some plaster of paris duplication was possible. In the late 1830's electro-deposition made molds far more accurate. Shortly thereafter impact transfer revolutionized counterfeiting by making a transer image possible for a die or casting.

Since the image transfer in this case is near perfect - we can rule out an engraved die or even a die punched from a counterfeit punch set. These dies/molds are a copy made from an actual coin or coins.


Quote:
But it passed the old moneyer's assessment(chops present) so it should be a Class 2 Counterfeit. Do you agree?


If the chop marks are real and if they were applied by the schroff and not by a private individual then they prove circulation in China and based on the low SG it tend to push the date of fabrication earlier. However, chop marks are NOT a guarantee. Many forgers add chops to fool collectors.

So once again we have facts that point in the opposite direction. The coin appears to be die struck (my presumption) and it would appear to have been chopped. Both would point to an early date.

But this is counter balanced by the die/mold making technique which clearly looks post Civil War ca. 1865 at the very earliest.

The best I could do with this coin right now is to say that it fits best in the Class 2 category of counterfeits and that it was made anytime between 1860 and 1930.
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wonghinghi's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2013  08:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So I hope that explains the distinction between the Class 2 silver counterfeits and the Class 3 numismatic forgeries.


Very deep and impressive explanations here, please accept my wordless thanks to you, swamperbob. Henry
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colonialjohn's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2013  09:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In my recent Chihuahua paper to the MNA I determined that both gold and platinum are BOTH critical signature elements. They ranged from 0.15% - 0.85% in the (5) genuine pieces I examined. Although the population count is low I would be surprised if anything changes in these acceptance range based on other studies of pieces from other countries in my collection. In the GNL book I know we discussed the level of gold dropping with time as refinery methods improve in die making as per Paul Craddock's Scientific Investigation of Forgeries book has confirmed with other period artifacts. As I analyze more 8R's of the period I do see the gold and platinum range in this 0.15-1.0% window of acceptance. So if someone sends me an 8R for validation I look at Ag,Pt & Au and also Pb levels which must be present due to the cuppelation process of Ag. Just as a reminder of the one Chihuahua pieces I analyzed that was below 90% it was considered contemporary based on physical attributes (i.e., poor workmanship) and the other was a Sheffield - silver plated over copper).

John Lorenzo
United States
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