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 Replies: 32 / Views: 4,090 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Edited by Numismat
11/13/2013 07:06 am
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
These fakes are really top quality.
I have seen previous discussion threads on how to pick the Gothic Crown fakes. The problem is remembering the details on how to pick them if you wish to buy an example.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1666 Posts |
The bigger problem is that these tips on picking them are out there on the forums where the counterfeiters constantly troll for info on how to improve their methods.
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Valued Member
United States
230 Posts |
Are the ebay sellers of these fakes in China or do they have fronts in the US? I never buy anything from China but sometimes wonder about some sellers here in the USA selling imported fakes. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1373 Posts |
Another reason (besides being poor) that I only collect modern coins. I hven't seen too many Jefferson nickel fakes out there; yet. It is sad, though, that one has to almost be a numismatic expert nowadays to be able to obtain 'real' coins. The bad thing (as mentioned above) is that the situation is only going to get worse as time goes on. Sad, so sad! |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
As mentioned many times over many different threads, not buying from China and Hong Kong is not helpful as:
a) These smart counterfeiters can possibly read this or other forum and know that if you take this shortcut, it will work to their advantage as they can setup accounts in the US or elsewhere.
b) As buyers, not attempting to acknowledge counterfeits as serious issues and yet keep looking for bargains
c) Not keeping up to date with counterfeits therefore losing track of such high grade counterfeits
I have thought of this throughly and decided to reverse my thinking for a bit. If I am a counterfeiter, this is how it works:
1) I have a market and product which means I can make money.
2) Demand exists, if and only if I can get the buyers to buy the products. Obviously law and ethics don't count.
3) The products come at a cost from raw material to selling which also includes time to advertise.
4) In order to appeal to the buyers, it must look good, whether it's good enough to decieve the buyers or not.
5) If product does not sell, research market and understand why
6) Keep on improving on product and focus on selling and making profit
7) Using profits from previous sales, either a) produce more coins b) improve on previous product line or c) both
Like it or not, the only way we can stop this vicious cycle is to stop buyers from buying as well as keeping such counterfeits offline. No point just pinning down on sellers - the demand comes from buyers as well. This is where the funds come from. Similar story when dealing with illicit drugs etc - you have to deal from both ends.
Personally using location as a criteria to buy coins is a) not numismatics b) discrimatory c) counterfeiters can use it for reverse psychology, i.e. if a fake is sold not in China, it's not a fake.
To me, I think this works better for numismatics - it makes me want to research why certain coins are more desirable as well as having the ownership of a genuine coin.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2669 Posts |
Location has nothing to do with it. A seller in the US could have previously purchased a fake from anywhere, and be selling it, knowingly or not. Learning the 'tells' of fake coins in general (not just a particular issue) will save much heartache later. Quote:Another reason (besides being poor) that I only collect modern coins. I hven't seen too many Jefferson nickel fakes out there; yet. Have you heard of the Henning forgeries?  Although those are in a different classification - they are actually worth more than a regular nickel, due to the fact they were not made to fool a collector. There are different types of forgeries - there are fakes meant to fool the collector (numismatic fake) and there are coins made during the coin's time period for certain reasons that have a lot of interesting history behind them, and are typically worth more than the coins they were meant to pass as or represent. British Invasion coppers, Henning nickels, both are an example of contemporary counterfeits as opposed to a numismatic fake. The numismatic fakes are the ones we need to look out for, and the only way to do that is to educate ourselves. In any case.. while location has nothing to do with it, finding a trusted seller whether by personal experience or word of mouth is very helpful. Even if a trusted source gets fooled, you have more recourse with that person. Quote:
The bigger problem is that these tips on picking them are out there on the forums where the counterfeiters constantly troll for info on how to improve their methods. This is unfortunate, but very true. |
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Valued Member
United States
136 Posts |
Some have middleman in the US.
The fakes are getting really good these days.
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Valued Member
United States
230 Posts |
I did not mean to suggest that not buying from China or most anywhere else in Asia was my only defense against being swindled by a fake. I have returned several coins to sellers here in the USA because they were obvious fakes or I strongly suspected they were. "There is no substitute for knowledge" is a coin collecting axiom that I take seriously and I would love to improve my skills at detecting fakes. I have thought of suggesting to this site a Forum Topic dedicated to detecting and reporting fakes but it sounds like it would be counterproductive. So, how does one go about sharpening those skills? P.S. One coin I reported to ebay for being fake was an 1861 Liberty Seated dollar with a CC mintmark. That one didn't get past me but it did have several bids! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
The big loophole is that people who are knowledgeable on the new class of high quality fakes cannot responsibly post info on identifying them in open public forums. It's a fine line... yes you want people to know about them, but the counterfeiters will know also and use that to upgrade their craft. It's really a pathetic situation. No type of coin is safe as long as there is profit to be made. People need to get their game up.
Edited by Numismat
11/13/2013 1:12 pm
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Valued Member
United States
462 Posts |
I have had 3 blatant fakes from ebay and all three form US sellers as I don't buy from sellers outside US for ebay. So these fakes have been infiltrated the US second hand market. What worries me is one of these sellers is an experienced super seller and he didn't bother to look at what he sells or he intentionally sold the fake. That is why I have been moving to Ma shops, vcoins and well established dealers lately in spite the higher price. One other thing I noticed in those high quality fakes is that these coins are all in AU or in better grades. Perhaps faking lower grade worn coins are difficult comparatively ? |
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
1324 Posts |
Whilst this comment is undoubtedly true,
>>The big loophole is that people who are knowledgeable on the new class of high quality fakes cannot responsibly post info on identifying them in open public forums
It doesn't sit well with this one
>>7) Using profits from previous sales, either a) produce more coins b) improve on previous product line or c) both
The way I look at it is that the above comment regarding improving manufacture will happen anyway, and if we sit quiet the forger will continue to make himself richer whilst the forgeries will end up dispersed amongst the collecting world.
Until XRF analysis becomes more accessible we're rather stuck with this.
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Valued Member
United States
230 Posts |
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Valued Member
Japan
71 Posts |
Quote:
I only collect modern coins even modern ones get forged - think, just how many fake mongolian hedgehogs are out there)))... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
14ers, someone is really going to be confused when that Trade dollar shows up and they realize the major error in judgement that made them bid $177 for a copy that is even marked "copy". ebay never fails to amaze me. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1666 Posts |
Quote:
One other thing I noticed in those high quality fakes is that these coins are all in AU or in better grades. Perhaps faking lower grade worn coins are difficult comparatively ? Many of the coins have a little wear or nicks and scratches that are put there on purpose so that the buyers will not send them in for grading, where they are typically caught. Most of the most expensive high quality counterfeits I have seen were in fact problem coins. The good news is that you can usually tell when the wear is recent rather than contemporary to when the coin would have actually circulated, as is the case with that Swiss 2 francs the GEKO posted. Quote:
Until XRF analysis becomes more accessible we're rather stuck with this. XRF can be fooled pretty easily when the coin is worth faking. Not going to say how, but I'm sure you have a good idea. :) |
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Replies: 32 / Views: 4,090 |
Posted 11/13/2013 07:11 am
