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 Replies: 31 / Views: 6,850 |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1006 Posts |
Hey everyone For the past few months I have been writing a few coin collecting articles anything from coin collecting for beginners to TPG's and everything I could think of. I just wrote them initially without really considering what I wanted to do with them tho after a while I thought if it all goes well I may try and make it into a everything in one coin book. Anyway just wanted to share a article here for peoples opinions or reactions but also to help dispel some common lies about Third Party Grading companies. Well here goes Lies about TPG's dispelled There have been a number of lies and misconceptions made and used by certain unethical dealers. In this article we will explore and dispel each and every single one of them. "Third Party Grading is to complicated" Some dealers also argue that third party grading is too complicated on the scale of 1-70 as compared to the adjectival system and is therefore unnecessary. While we all know that grading is subjective they fail to understand that the Sheldon Grading system of 1 to 70 is far more accurate to show the true grade of a coin while the Sheldon System has a grand total of 42 separate grades while ANDA which publishes the adjectival grading standard only recognises around half as many grades. So ask yourself which system is more accurate for your coins and telling you which coin is either a only just, average or good example of a certain grade and then which one is more open to interpretation. In all these cases the Sheldon Grading System comes out on top. "Third Party Grading is an unnecessary expense" This could not be any more untrue. TPG has a massive benefit to both the owner of the coin and any prospective buyers. Third Party Grading gives everyone confidence that a coin is genuine, grades at the specified grade and that any problems have been disclosed on the holder now even tho grading costs money it is nearly always repaid in spades when it is sold as people are willing to pay for the added certainty and grading costs of the coin and why wouldn't you? Especially if you are buying expensive coins particularly those whose price depends primarily on the grade of said coin which if over graded when sold raw can reduce its value sometimes up to 2 to 4x its purchase value. It is obvious that Third Party Grading is not an unnecessary expense particularly in an industry as subjective with large price swings lying on the fineness of the smallest detail as numismatics. "Slabs are ugly and are to be despised" Beauty is arguably in the eye of the beholder but Slabs particularly those of PCGS are beautiful and professional and not only are they good looking but they are also one of the most if not the most effective way of protecting your coins. Preventing any accidental dropping of coins occasioning the dreaded rim nick and the sonically sealed slab prevents the deterioration of the coins surfaces from atmospheric influences. "TPG's know barely anything about Australian Coins" Now this is one of the more common lies used by dealers and is absolutely utterly false. TPG's are made up of the most experienced graders and authenticators for practically any coin in existence including Australian Coins. Now if this statement were true which it isn't it would mean that TPG's have little knowledge about our coins but they have proven time and time again that they can successfully and accurately authenticate such Australian Rarities as 1923 Half Pennies and 1930 Pennies in less than a minute which would contrast to the half an hour approximately that it would take a dealer showing that TPG's in fact have intimate and extensive knowledge of Australian Coins. Corrections and opinions are welcome Thanks everyone and Hope you enjoyed the article Edited by oh my florin
01/08/2014 10:02 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2180 Posts |
I think that if you are putting forward your opinions it helps to refer to other sources and evidence to help back up your points.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
877 Posts |
Don't forget there are Third Party Graders (long established and reputable) and some "Third Party Graders" (no comment -don't want to be accused of libel).
Some of the "lies" are not lies for some grading services -some dodgy ones out there.
I do, however, take your point. There is plenty of misinformation out there about this topic [and just about anything else you care to look up].
Moral is to be very careful with internet research;
•Don't believe everything you read
•Try to find trustworthy sources
•A good grasp of correct spelling and grammar is an asset for recognising biased opinions. Don't ask me why but there seems to be a high correlation (just like with spam and phishing emails).
•And, phrasing can be a clue -"The true facts about..." is a flag for me to peruse following content with a very cynical eye.
Edited by Jeff
01/09/2014 02:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
OMF A little too much opinion and not enough facts. I do agree that the top tier TPGs being involved in Australian coins has put the pressure on many dealers (who dip, overgrade, doctor coins etc) but slabs are a boom niche for the better sellers (Walter, Eric, Kathryn etc) who sell them. You are mistaken in writing that the cost of slabbing is usually repaid in the sale price, not true as I have picked up many slabs on ebay for less than the cost of slabbing (like a PCGS AU58 Canberra florin for under $30) and it is not unusual to see MS64-65 early 1960's threepences go for under $10. Slabbing is only worth it for coins worth at least $50+ as it costs about $30 to ship a coin, slab it and ship it back (and then you also have to factor in some coins getting a dreaded AU Details kiss of death). But for really good coins it is worth it. I'd be uncomfortable bidding high on ebay for a raw coin described as choice uncirculated but have happily bid hundreds for a slabbed coin that I know is choice uncirculated. And for your own high grades it is peace of mind knowing that they are sealed/protected and your heirs will know exactly what the coins are worth (thanks to Blue Sheet). Not much risk then that your heirs will be duped by a sleezy dealer saying a coin is not worth much. |
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Pillar of the Community
 Australia
1006 Posts |
Hey everyone thanks for the replies everyone
Jeff I do cover what does constitute a reputable third party grading company in another article in this one I assume PCGS, NGC and ANACS. Thanks for the tips they are important for any article.
Nealeffendi I agree with you pointing out the mistake of slabbing not always being justified in terms of lower cost coins I assumed higher price items $100+.
I agree with you both and Mr T that it is opinionated and I will amend it to add significantly more facts and perhaps utilize pictures to help convey the point more.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
856 Posts |
Interesting piece omf. However I'd pick you up on: Quote:"TPG's know barely anything about Australian Coins" Now this is one of the more common lies used by dealers and is absolutely utterly false. TPG's are made up of the most experienced graders and authenticators for practically any coin in existence including Australian Coins. There are many instances of (US) TPGS getting identification and grade wrong on British coins. And when it comes to ancient, hammered and early milled coinage, well .. it's very clear that they don't have the reference sets needed to make proper judgements. I don't believe you can therefore say "practically any coin in existence" What you also didn't mention is that TP grading is essentially a commercial venture, originally to help people (and in particular dealers) safely buy coins unseen. Where there is little interest in such a product, such as in Britain or amongst collectors of ancient coins, it generally isn't seen as a benefit to either sellers or buyers. Sellers generally only bother if they intend to sell in the US and most buyers break the coin out of the slab when they receive it. This is of course in part responsible for my earlier observation about older coins. No TPGS is going to commit to spending much time or money where there is no demand for their product, are they? You also say Quote:
the sonically sealed slab prevents the deterioration of the coins surfaces from atmospheric influences.
Personally I think this has yet to be shown conclusively. I have heard of instances where earlier slabs appear to have been tampered with to produce toning in previously untoned coins and also of coins 'deteriorating' in the slab. Bottom line is that in some places (certainly the US, possibly Australia) slabbed coins are accepted to the extent that the benefits you outlined aren't disputed. But please don't think that means they are universally a good thing or even welcome. That just ain't so. Edited by Tom Goodheart
01/09/2014 07:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1653 Posts |
Quote:
Third Party Grading gives everyone confidence that a coin is genuine PCGS has slabbed fakes and made millions of dollars in other errors. They say so on their website. China is faking TPG slabs for their fake coins. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
Articles and many books ARE opinions. They are meant to be taken that way. It is not a scientific paper he is writing to further a new theory in physics. That would require sources and extensive lab work. Nor is he presenting an alternate theory on the origins of the universe. " TPG's are the best way to insure you are getting genuine, correctly labeled coins " TPG's do and have made mistakes. Any statement in almost any article can be questioned, that is why it is an article and not a scientific paper. Your article is the start of a very nice " guide. " Guides are made up of opinion (think tour guides)based experience and the combined opinions of others. A little editing of grammar and spelling and you have a nice start of a series of articles  |
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Moderator
 Australia
16808 Posts |
Quote:
There have been a number of lies and misconceptions made and used by certain unethical dealers. It is not just dealers that are against TPGs. I am not a dealer, and I would happily put myself in the "against" camp. Quote:
Some dealers also argue that third party grading is too complicated on the scale of 1-70 as compared to the adjectival system and is therefore unnecessary.
While we all know that grading is subjective they fail to understand that the Sheldon Grading system of 1 to 70 is far more accurate to show the true grade of a coin while the Sheldon System has a grand total of 42 separate grades while ANDA which publishes the adjectival grading standard only recognises around half as many grades.
So ask yourself which system is more accurate for your coins and telling you which coin is either a only just, average or good example of a certain grade and then which one is more open to interpretation. In all these cases the Sheldon Grading System comes out on top. The two systems are as "complicated" as whoever implements them wishes them to be. Someone could in theory implement a hyper-Sheldon system where not only all 70 numbers are used, but there are several different gradients between each number. Alternatively, you can have an equally "complicated" adjectival system, with a final grade description longer than the American Declaration of Independence. Or, you can make both systems as simple as they were a couple of generations ago. On the issue of what you label "accuracy", I believe the technical term you're looking for is really "precision". A grading scale with more graduations in it is "more precise", not "more accurate". Look at it this way: if the true answer to a question is "42", and I say "The answer is 40, plus or minus 10", I have given you an accurate answer (the truth is within the range I specified), but not a very precise one. If, however, I say "The answer is 44.357 plus or minus 0.001", I have given a very precise answer - but alas, not a very accurate one. Extra precision is worthless if it is nevertheless inaccurate. And the accuracy of coin grading depends entirely on the skill of the grader, not the system they use to denote the grade. Quote:
...Third Party Grading gives everyone confidence that a coin is genuine... Here is what I feel to be one of the most dangerous and insidious aspects of the TPG subculture: the blind acceptance that what is written on a TPG slab is gospel truth. It ignores the possibilities of (a) the TPGs making a mistake, and (b) counterfeit slabs. If all your slabbed coins are coins you send in to the TPG yourself, you are fairly immune from scenario (b), but scenario (a) is still possible. If scenario (a) occurs, then the slab canonizes the error. An excellent example is from a few years ago when one of the TPGs slabbed predecimal "proof" coins bearing dates in which no proof coins were struck. The TPGs are getting better, but the horse has bolted - those old slabs are still out there, errors and all. However, if you are buying slabbed coins from a dealer or online, then scenario (a) or scenario (b) are both possible. Buying slabbed coins offers a sense of security, but in my opinion, it is a false sense of security. If you need to become an expert in the coins anyway to avoid falling victim to scenario (a) and you also need to become an expert in slab authentication and verification to avoid scenario (b), then what benefit has the slab actually given you? Quote:
...they can successfully and accurately authenticate such Australian Rarities as 1923 Half Pennies and 1930 Pennies in less than a minute which would contrast to the half an hour approximately that it would take a dealer... Thanks, but if I'm going to pay money to a third party for them to grade/evaluate my coins, I want them to take as much time as they need to make sure they get it right - and I'd hope they'd spend an awful lot longer than a minute per coin doing it. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts |
Your article is essentially giving your opinion about a professional service in which a third party is paid for their opinion.
If you want to pass of your article as an editorial or opinion piece, then it is well written. However, it is improper to make statements like "it is untrue" and stating that you are "dispelling lies". I know many people who would disagree with almost every "conclusive statement" you make. Please just take this into consideration before attempting to pass this along in the manner it is currently written.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
I'll lean towards the against camp as well. Please note that I do own slabbed coins as well just to make it clear that I am not biased.
With regards to unnecessary expense - I think we need to look at the cost factor. Firstly being located down under, having to send coins overseas and then waiting for them to come back is just a risk. Sending coins is technically prohibited by Australian Post and the cost of sending via registered as well as having them coming back is easily in terms of 40 dollars or more alone. (assuming that it's about 20 dollars one way) This goes up sigificantly if you put insurance or want express service etc. Note that this is ONLY the postage. Add in slabbing cost and you are looking probably at least 50 dollars and possibly a waiting time of more than three months. Therefore, this is more likely worthwhile for coins that have value of more than 500 or even 1000 dollars to start off with.
The biggest concern at the moment is counterfeit slabs and I personally think that this is one point that should not be lightly dismissed. While we should do everything we can to eradicate counterfeits, we cannot just simply claim that all slabs are safe and trustworthy.
TPGs might want to establish a market here - afterall I think the 1930 penny holds the world record for the most expensive copper coin ever sold.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2805 Posts |
I hope that the Australian market will soon see a domestic TPG that can become a recognized expert in the field. In Canada, we perpetually suffer from American numismatics coming over the border - overpriced American coins, American slabs, American TPGs... but we have managed to get one (or two) fairly renowned TPGs on Canadian soil (ICCS and, maybe, CCCS). At a Canadian show, what you see most often are those little ICCS flips, and people are less leery than they would be with NGC or PCGS - but I still think that third-party grading is mostly a waste on nearly all world coins, as there is no huge market clamoring for the top grades and it is only really being done to fight counterfeiting. This builds a dependence on TPGs and the counterfeit-detection abilities of the rest of us suffer: which becomes a calamity when the security of the slabs (i.e. counterfeits in counterfeit coffins) is compromised. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1006 Posts |
Hey everyone I don't mind at all whether people prefer raw or slabbed that is a personal choice the main intent of the piece is that it helps collectors identify certain lies given by dealers (I think the Australian's on here can guess which one in particular does this) as well as create a more educated collector. Everyone makes mistakes as well tho I can point out at least 5 overgraded coins per TPG mistake. In terms of knowledge of coins the TPG's have an outstanding knowledge of coins and even tho they make mistakes with attribution they are continually challenged with new found varieties, issues and attributions and they deal with it admirably. Frankly here in Australia I think I have seen only one or two mislabeled coins and both of those were pointed out on coin forums both on ebay at that. Anyway they have had the outstanding initiative to back their grading's and authentication of coins under guarantees. Sap they are certain of it's authenticity to the value of the coin itself on the market under their guarantee. P.S EVERYONE THIS ARTICLE IS NOT TO CONDEMN COLLECTING RAW COINS BUT SIMPLY TO SHOW THE LIES OF CERTAIN DEALERS AND INSPIRE CONFIDENCE IN TPG'S. I TO COLLECT RAW COINS AS WELL. Edited by oh my florin
01/09/2014 5:34 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
Enjoying the replies (both for and against).
A number of errors in both camps.
OMF: There are more than a few mislabled coins in slabs, Heritage had to pull a slabbed fake 1923 halfpenny and at least 4 of the 1920 pennies are mislabled (such as an obvious Dot Above being called a No Dot).
Nalaberong: There is a market clamoring for top grade world coins, as an example I paid $335 for a MS66 threepence a few weeks ago, at MS65 it would be under $100 and at MS64 about $20. Raw threepences (same year/mint) that might grade AU58-MS62 are easily purchased for a little over bullion value. Those huge increments show the demand and the profitability of slabbing top grade world coins.
Both camps: There is a huge incentive for dealers to fudge a grading on a coin and turn a hundred dollar coin into a thousand dollar coin. TPGs are the best way to stop that as the good ones have a reputation as an honest umpire to maintain, if they slip then they will lose out in a very short time.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2124 Posts |
I'm sorry but your article is like if you work for a TPG company. You should write about the pros but also about the cons. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
1006 Posts |
Haha arianzo prehaps I should start billing them for advertising  Anyway in terms of pros and cons that is covered in a separate article and this one is primarily about uncovering lies used by dealers to prevent TPG usage not about the pros and cons of TPG's themselves. As a side note the Pros of TPG's are profoundly positive regardless Edited by oh my florin
01/10/2014 7:50 pm
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Replies: 31 / Views: 6,850 |
Posted 01/09/2014 02:31 am
