2009 DC Daniel Carr Silver Eagle Proofed/Overstrike

Just a quick search and I found a few examples of altered coins, that don't seem to be a problem with many collectors

http://www.hobonickels.org/showcase.htm

I have seen hundreds of bills like this.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2003-A-UNIT...em3cdede8ba8

Here is a CCF thread with hundreds of altered coins no one is complaining about.
https://goccf.com/t/126486

After a good nights sleep .. I got to thinking.

Do you think we should find all the people that do bad things to coins and put them in jail.

I do not like the people that gold and silver plate State Quarters. HSN must know who they are.

And there is a guy that cuts coins into puzzle pieces.
he is making good money.

Also there are people advertising cut coins for jewelry, there are a lot of them online. They really destroy coins for profit.

On a serious note. There are many people that use coins to make money, such as making novelty, jewelry or fantasy coins. If they are not breaking the law, then should they be put into jail because some do not like their product.

Daniel Carr is using presses purchased from the U.S. Govt.
On some of his coins he uses actual U.S. coins to make his end product. He operates out in the open, not trying to hide anything.

If the U.S. Govt. thought he was making counterfeit coins, they would have closed him down and taken all of his coins and equipment.

I could have said that better.

The example I was looking at was



To take a non U.S. one dollar coin and make it into a coin that is legal tender would be counterfeiting.



I have a set counterstamp Lincoln cents. 13 coins with one of the first 13 states stamped on each coin. In a nice holder. The person that did these altered these coins to sell for profit. That set would fit right into the counterstamp thread. I would agree that not all counterstmped coin are made to sell for a profit, some are.

In that example it is the same as Daniel Carr. Making changes to a coin for profit. But neither are counterfeit.

With the 1964 Peace dollar coin you mentioned, he started out with a real Peace dollar and made changes to it, but it is still a Peace dollar. If he had taken a Canadian dollar and made it into a 1964 Peace dollar, that would be counterfeit.

People make changes to coins for profit all the time, on ASE's you can find Liberty and the flag painted .. put stickers of Ombama on Illinois quarters or gold plate on Walking Liberty half dollars. They are not doing it to pass the coins off as a rare counterfeit.

They may call it art, fantasy coins or a novelty, but the bottom line they are doing it to make a profit.

IMO there is a difference in this and making a counterfeit coin.

My opinion is that these are on par with Hobo Nickels. At what point do Hobo nickels cease to be nickels or legal tender ?

Are Hobo Nickels counterfeit ? I don't have a problem with DC doing his fantasy pieces , as long as these are not passed off as errors or long lost mint "patterns". But where does the responsibility lie ? With the seller to be upfront as to what these really are ? With the buyer to do due diligence? Hasn't DC done his part to distinguish these as fantasy pieces by stamping them with DC.

Hobo Nickels, does it matter if you carve them or re-stamp them ?

I understand what you are saying trdhrdr007.

I am thinking, we live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty.

So why would a guy take a chance of losing his business and maybe going to jail by making counterfeit coins. When it would be easy to stay within the law and use a 2009 ASE like he states he is using.

I am aware how the U.S. mint makes proof coins. I am not sure what process Daniel Carr uses.

If he was using a complete set of die's, the same as the mint uses, then that might be illegal. I am not sure .. but I don't think you can have the die's that could be used to make a counterfeit coin.

I would think the Treasury Dept. must have gotten complaints about these coins, and had to check out his process.

If some really don't like these coins ... maybe they should be asking the Treasury Dept. instead of Daniel Carr.

If you don't have the dies how do you strike the coin? If the only difference between the proof Carr is making & a regular 2009 is the blank prep & striking process what's keeping him from making business strike 2009 ASE from his own blanks, selling them for the premium that ASE sell for over silver rounds & pocketing the difference? IMO Mr. Carr is walking a fine line between what is & isn't legal. It's also possible he has crossed the line & the government hasn't got around to dealing with him.

Completely setting aside whether they're counterfeit or break the law in any way, I can't believe that anyone here actually believes that it matters what these things were before they were put in a 400 ton press. The notion is so incredibly silly that it almost makes me embarrassed to be a member here.

According to the Hobby Protection Act, it is not. It explicitly requires COPY.

The question is whether or not these pieces fall under that protection.

Neither the HPA nor the FTC seem to explicitly define the scope of "coins and other numismatic items" protected under the act. So, if I read it broadly, the requirement applies to any imitation coin, foreign or domestic, regardless of date (existent/non-existent) or strike type used. That is, even though the are no 1933 or 1975 Quarters, fantasy pieces that are identical to the quarter in design (save the date) would still require COPY.

In other words, under this interpretation, all of the DC pieces are illegal.

I am not a lawyer, but I play one in my head.