2009 DC Daniel Carr Silver Eagle Proofed/Overstrike

Just saying.....

We keep trying to telling you... he does. The dies he uses to make these "fantasies" are pretty much identical to the dies the US Mint uses - they have to be, in order to fit into his government-issued press. The only difference between his dies and actual government dies are the little "DC" mark, and whatever tiny difference might or might not exist that make the coin a "fantasy" - in this case, the only difference between his 2009 ASE dies and genuine 2009 ASE dies is that his dies were polished. He could absolutely use those exact same dies to overstrike a Canadian maple leaf, and it would look exactly the same as your coin, since in both cases, no trace of the design of the original coin would survive. And, as has been pointed out in this thread and in previous threads about the Moonlight Mint, possession of dies alone "in likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon" is sufficient to be charged with a counterfeiting offense under the law as it now stands. It does not matter what the owner of the dies "intends" to do with them, or that he pinky-promises to only ever use them to alter genuine coins that already almost-look-like-that.

Which may also explain why he destroys the dies after he's finished with them. Some might call it "ensuring the mintage limit restrictions are adhered to" or some such. I call it "destroying the evidence".

Playing lawyer again though you can start to argue what imitation really means such as you cant imitate something that doesn't exist.

If there was no Jbuck I couldnt imitate giving you a hard time. I could give someone else a hard time but it wouldnt be imitating




Hes submitted numerous designs for coins to the mint including the New York and Rhode Island Quarter that they actually used. They almost certainly know who he is and what hes doing given that he got ANACS to start grading his stuff. At this point they likely dont care and might have even given their blessing. Hes been doing it longer than the Norfed guy who the feds jumped on and told ebay they cannot allow any listings for his stuff.

Given his past its reasonable to assume that theres some sort of relationship between him and someone at the mint who could tell him quietly to stop making a certain coin theyre uncomfortable with or what he needs to do to keep from crossing the line and getting on their radar. The DC markings may have satisfied them.

He was able to purchase a mint press though and has a history of dealing with the mint officials. Situations like that often lead to quiet discussions or a phone call to resolve issues as opposed to a secret service raid that could take place if one of us started doing it. For all we know he checks with someone first about their thoughts on a new fantasy piece before making it.

The 09 proof ASE which seems to be the focus of the discussion never existed though. That year they only issued the bullion version due to the demand. Which gets back to the what exactly is the definition question. Something needs to exist before it can be imitated.

But intention also has to be considered when dealing with gray areas. Its quite clear from his website that he has no intention of deceiving anyone with anything he sells there and is very up front about what it is and the fact that its a fantasy peace. Its also a very limited mintage for his products.

A real counterfeiter would not only be trying to pass them off as real or ultra rarities, but would be mass producing them as well. Its a tough sell to argue the spirit of the law was intended to stop someone whose up front about what they sell in very limited amounts.

What he's doing is still imitating an ASE though. No Question.

I'll go back to what has been said before. I'll make a $20 bill with a series year that never existed and put DC for a Federal Reserve code. I'll clean up and won't get in any trouble because its a fantasy note right?

Being mostly unfamiliar with the back story of those I tried to do a little research. From what I could find it looks like Henning was a guy who had already been arrested for counterfeiting in the past who was making nickels in mass quantities to spend which is the exact opposite of what Carr is doing. Hes not pumping out 100s of thousands to spend and doesn't have a history of counterfitting bills.

Which again all gets back to the spirit of the law and whats being done. Mass producing things and passing them off as a real nickel is completely different then making a few 100 ASEs of a completely different type that didnt exist. Henning may have had some argument if he made proof ones for a year there were no proofs, but with his past he was done for as soon as he started.

Furthermore he picked a circulating coin that just had a minor adjustment that could have easily been a mint error to pass it off. Carr on the other hand picks years that dont exist or types that dont exist and signs his work on some of them. Henning did none of those, he picked a valid year of a valid type and just left off a mint mark. Its obvious what he was trying to accomplish.




Sap beat me too it but you really cant even make the comparison. Bills are the back bone of commerce aside from credit cards, the government is going to have no tolerance for anything with them. The ASE in question is not anything commerce uses its a collectable so yes more leeway comes there.

You also dont have a relationship with the people in charge as far as I know. If they knew who you were and you had PMG grade every one first making small quantities maybe they would allow it. Law enforcement at every level make decisions every day about what gets enforced and what doesn't, this is no different. Lawyers wouldnt make 100s an hour is the law was black and white and equally applied to everyone.

It could be just as simple as they trust Carr not to churn out fakes and if someone else did it they would get arrested. None of us here are in a position to answer those questions as we have no idea whats gone on behind closed doors or what the people who do make those decisions are thinking.

Theyd never spend time investigating a single coin. If they did that would be a good sign that its time to cut back on LEO budgets since their obviously isn't enough for them to do in order to justify their numbers.




Its impossible to deal with the issue without considering intent and how its being done. Its just not the same as pumping out fake Morgans from China or the Henning Nickels. Just like having a small bag of drugs isn't the same as being the Cartel smuggling them in. If laws were that black and white lawyers wouldnt exist and certainly wouldnt be making what they are now if they did.

But when it comes to being illegal or not it again gets back to what is a reproduction? How do you reproduce something that never existed? The Peace dollar is the one a good argument could be made for, but that would require the government admitting some exist. If every last one was destroyed it never existed since theres no way Carrs could be confused for something that was destroyed.