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Replies: 17 / Views: 3,078 |
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Valued Member
United States
208 Posts |
Hello, I'm looking to expand from wheat cents into Buffalo nickels and am somewhat confused by the price guides on them. Typically values seem to be tied to mintage. However, in Buffalo nickels I can't make rhyme or reason of the values versus mintage. For instance, the 1937-S Buffalo nickel has a mintage of 5,635,000 according to PCGS and the 1930-S has a mintage of 5,435,000, yet both are valued quite a bit less than a number of earlier nickels with far higher mintages, such as the 1919-S and pretty much every D nickel from 1914-1920. There are others too. Why do Buffalo nickel values seem to defy mintage numbers? What am I missing?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4680 Posts |
Survival numbers and condition rarities. Survival rate of Buffalo nickels from the 30's are far higher than earlier years. Both dates you mentioned have a high survival rate in higher grades. Same goes for 31-s; this year was hoarded from the get go due to the general public's knowledge of a low mintage. It's common in MS, therefore carries less premium than earlier years with twice the mintage numbers.
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Valued Member
 United States
208 Posts |
@Ty Survival rates? How does a coin die? I know that precious metal coins were melted from time to time or called back like gold in the 1930s, but how would a Buffalo nickel not "survive"?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7613 Posts |
Quote: but how would a Buffalo nickel not "survive"? In the 1920's thru the 1950's a nickel was a lot of money, widely used and wore out quickly. A Coke was a nickel (or six for a quarter), a bag of Fritos was a nickel. Candy bars were a nickel. Those things cost way more than that in the world we live in today. The design of the coin didn't help. The date and devices on the Buffalo nickel simply were worn off. Hence, that is why we saw so many dateless Buffalos during their 25 years of issue and they could still be found in circulation years later. The coin did its job well! It was still a widely used coin up into the early 1960's but then slowly faded into history as the Jefferson took hold and wore better.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Don't forget the nickelodeon - movies cost five cents. I wonder if a lot of them "died" during WWII when nickel was needed for the war, but I don't recall reading anything about a large melting.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:@Ty Survival rates? How does a coin die? I know that precious metal coins were melted from time to time or called back like gold in the 1930s, but how would a Buffalo nickel not "survive"? The U.S. Gov't removes heavily worn coins from circulation and it "dies". Remember coins used to be worth their face value in metallic content. As a coins wears down it "falls out spec" and is subject to removal and, possibly, melting. Collecting of roll and bag quantity of coins really took off in the U.S. after the Roaring '20s. Many 1930's dated pieces were saved in mass while earlier dates from the teens and early/mid twenties were not saved and have lower availability regardless of mintage. There are many other factors but the two noted above are major contributors to "defying mintage numbers".
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Moderator
 United States
34393 Posts |
@hord, this complexity that you are discovering is something that I think makes coin collecting more fun. Determining a coin's value is more than just looking up the mintage numbers--understanding the history puts perspective and nuance into the value.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4587 Posts |
There is also the perception of rarity that causes disproportionate savings. First year/Last year of a design. And relative mintages... if people know ONE fact about Jefferson nickels, it's that 1950D is THE key date in the series. It was known at the time... there were plenty of 1956 news reports that "the 1950-D Nickel is rare, only 2.6 million were minted vs. 9.8 million in Philadelphia" so people looked for and saved 1950-D. Or did they? PCGS's survival rates are 7.8m out of 9.8m or 80% for the 1950 and 2.1m of 2.6m or 81% for the 1950-D. BUT estimates are 166K vs. 765K in MS65 or better. It would seem that 1950D Jeffs were saved earlier and thus in better condition than their peers. Today, a high-grade 1950 (MS65, PCGS, $28) is actually rarer than a high-grade 1950-D (MS65, PCGS, $28). Go figure. And the available populations are sufficient for the number of collectors so the prices aren't crazy. Now, look at the Washington quarters, 1932 (first year and initially a one-year commemorative type). 25c was a lot of value during the Depression. Only rich people could save them. 1932 - 5.4m minted, 500k survive (9%), 5k (0.1%) in MS65 or higher 1932D - 437k minted, 44k survive (10%), 650 (0.1%) in MS65 or higher 1932S - 408k minted, 40k survive (10%), 500 (0.1%) in MS65 or higher There are far more collectors than can be served by 500 or 650 coins. As a result, the MS65 1932S has a PCGS population of 186 (62 higher), and a price guide of $3,000. The 1932D is relatively rarer: population of 94 (10 higher), and a $12,500 guide price.
-----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5661 Posts |
There were millions of Buffalos that became dateless because of heavy usage, especially in the earlier years. That alone may account for the lower survival rate of Buffalos with recognizable dates in the teens and 20's.
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Valued Member
 United States
208 Posts |
Thanks guys! Clearly I still have a lot to learn.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4680 Posts |
Late back to the party. Nothing more to add that hasn't been stated above. All great points made! Main points I had in mind that were already touched on, is early date nickels were used, heavily! As Zurie pointed out, there are millions of dateless buffs out there, majority being early dates. There's a handful of great reference books out there if you're just delving into the world of Buffs. "The Authoritative Reference on Buffalo nickels" is a must! CoAuthored by the late Ron Pope, Wexler, and Kevin Flynn. The Complete Guide to Buffalo nickels by the late great David Lange is another. I was also pleasantly surprised by the 2nd Edition " A Guide book to Buffalo and Jefferson nickels" Red Book. David Bowers talks a bit more about the day to day use of nickels in commerce, more so than some of the other reference books. Bowers also talks a bit more from the buyers standpoint on what to consider when purchasing. These few are a great start, with several other great ones, but are a bit more geared towards varieties
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Valued Member
 United States
208 Posts |
Thanks for the book recommendations. I really enjoyed the Bowers Guide on Lincoln Cents. Might have to check out his Buffalo nickel one as well.
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Moderator
 United States
94728 Posts |
Thanks for asking the question, I was mildly curious about that as well
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Valued Member
New Zealand
188 Posts |
OK, I'm even later to the party, but I've wondered the same thing for many years. I've been in New Zealand nearly two decades, and I have some speculative insight on this. Let me say first that an unusual number of 1914-Ds and 1916 DDOs have turned up in NZ. While I've not had the luxury of finding any of the latter ones (maybe a poor man's version, but not a proper one), I have now gotten hold of maybe six or seven 1914-Ds. My theory is that significant numbers of certain mintages ended up in places like Panama or Europe during WWI. I've tested the Panama theory on knowledgable folks here, though they insist that no one on troop ships from NZ transiting the canal would not have been allowed off ship. Hard to know how it really went at the time. It was a long trip across the Pacific, and it's hard to imagine there wouldn't have been some shore leave taken. In any case, when serving side by side in WWI or visiting a base of a friendly nation, it's easy to see where soldiers hanging out and making friends might share a coin as a token of friendship or pay each other small debts (or win a pot in poker?). A dime was slightly smaller than a British sixpence. Both would have had similar silver contents. In WWII the phenomenon was even more pronounced because the US actually had bases here temporarily. I suspect quite a bit of US coinage just entered circulation at a rough equivalent to their NZ counterparts in terms of size. Even now when cruise ships come to town some local businesses will accept U$, Australian $ and euros from passengers who haven't bothered to convert money to NZ dollars. Picture of one of my 1914-Ds for tax. I think it's fire damaged. Most of them have been roughly the same condition (without the fire damage) or better. Note die rotation. The beauty of finding US coins here is that they tend to have been chucked in a box and left since they came back here because they cannot be spent here.   (I've added to this post rather than starting a new one, but if a mod/admin thinks a new thread is in order, I'm happy to start it.)
Do not read this sentence.
Edited by Buffalo soldat 05/30/2025 06:38 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3622 Posts |
Here are a few more factors in the price differentials.
The cluttered design, difficulty striking that design, older coining presses at the branch mints, and relative lack of dies shipped to the branch mints affected both quantity and quality. Denver and San Francisco had a Hobson's Choice: reduce striking pressure and strike quality to extend die life or strike for quality with normal striking pressure and use the heavily worn dies well past normal die life. in both cases, quality suffered. When these coins were placed in circulation, the apparent wear advanced quickly. That's part of what makes grading the Buffalos a bit tricky.
On top of that, die clashes are extremely common. That led to heavy die polishing to eliminate the clash marks, again reducing die details, strike quality, and contributing to what often is misjudged as circulation wear. The dangers of the coining presses then in use contributed to the heavy die polishing. The Ferracute knuckle presses in common use at the branch mints lacked any of the modern safety guards. Press operators wanted to get the polishing done quickly and as safely as possible. This led to a "get it done" attitude that wasn't particularly concerned with the appearance of the coins after the polishing. This is part of the reason for so many abraded die varieties.
Another factor was what was occurring during and right after the Buffalo series. The early years overlapped World War I, when steel was needed for the war effort. The quality of steel used in the dies wasn't what it is today. That reduced die life and strike quality. In the wake of the war, a steep recession occurred in 1921-1923, coming on the heels of the flu pandemic. Five cents was a lot of money, and the nickels circulated heavily. The economic boom that followed from 1923-1929 generated a need for more coins in commerce, and the existing coins changed hands frequently. Then came the depression of 1929-1940, and the existing nickels again were needed to put food on the table. Then came World War II, and people had a lot more important things to worry about than their pocket change.
All of this created condition rarities in the series. While a particular date may have many coins still in existence, and those with readable dates may have modest prices in lower grades, very few coins may exist above a breaking point in the grades. Consider just a few examples. A 1921-S price accelerates faster than a Formula I car by each grade increment. Weakly struck Denver coins, such as 1924-D and 1925-D and San Francisco's equivalent, the 1926-S, are regularly undergraded, and can be bought in apparent lower grades for a modest amount, but mid-graded coins can break the bank. For example, a 1926-S in VG/F/low VF can be snagged for $100-$200 or so. By EF, it is well over $1,000.
It's a fun series to collect. Take the time to study the strike qualities and things that imitate wear. It is possible to find slabbed undergraded coins at the VG-10 to F-12 level and get bitten badly by slabbed overgraded coins sold at the EF-40 level.
EDIT: I need to add one more factor. The branch mints especially, but all three mints in reality, frequently changed out one die at a time. This created mismatched die states on many coins. It can be easy to misjudge a grade when looking at a coin with high apparent wear on one side and less apparent wear on the other. That affects price considerably, if the coin is misgraded. Badly mismatched die strikes are better graded heavily or entirely by the earlier die state side.
Edited by fortcollins 05/30/2025 11:08 am
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
5393 Posts |
Adding to the New Zealand comment above , I have acquired many 1913 to 19 ExF or better Buffalo nickels in the UK on buying trips . Theory being US soldiers (some Canadian troops as well ) brought them over and the coins just stayed there.
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Replies: 17 / Views: 3,078 |