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 Replies: 118 / Views: 8,666 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5622 Posts |
I am an enthusiast because I can be, I am also very Obsessive to begin with and have OCD, this certainly assists in this addicting hobby.LOL.
Also as mentioned before the fellow vammers, the other hunters, their learning assists me in a way that no book could, in a way that no where else could I go to for an explanation of what some here find so easily absorbed, where I, like pictures, LOL, and an explanation given like the way I need it, to the point, direct and always from another member willing to assist myself and others with what seems to be no regard for time, effort, or patience on their part, always giving and the kindness aboard here is another reason to be glad to belong to an organization or forum like this one.
I really appreciate the knowledge base on this ship and would cruise with no other, Thanks to all whom assisted in my knowledge and intellect, you are very appreciated!!!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
Ovaloids,,let me First appologize for listing the G clashes as the ultimate reason,as my first understandings of this phenominum was from when I was studying an unknown VAM 1904-0 VAM 26 with a rotation which was supposed to only found on the VAM 45...this was before Alan wrote his book..from VW I only saw the partial oval of the G clash assuming this was the "new lingo". After some research today, I did find other examples of ovaloids http://www.vamworld.com/message/view/home/15995957 As for the actual reason, whether its from clashing/die failure or perhaps occlusion I can't say.... But I can say I'm not above being wrong, though I try to be as accurate as I can... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I will always be enthusiastic for vamming...And garage sales. I still carry the spear and the net, just in case..The prey is out of range...Despite setbacks it does not detour me, its a mix of collecting
Morgans for what they are and what they could be....There must be a balance......If I thought VAMS were "ALL THAT THERE IS"..then I would forget why I collect in the beginning.....
Which is why I collect..for the collection, and the possible Vams within the collection...There are many alley's one can go down but grading is first and foremost in any direction. If there is any value in what direction we decide to do..
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Valued Member
United States
380 Posts |
Yep... when you see the other "ovaloids" you see that never has one been found on a non-clashed coin. As well, the 1891-O VAM-1A3 is as much proof as I need to know what happened. The 1903 has always been an interesting coin and many believe it is not an actual "ovaloid" as defined at VAMworld. My verdict on that particular coin is still out. As for the others, I am confident in my explanation of what caused the "ovaloids". So what do you think about "that?"  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
'Your' explanation is no explanation at all.
Your idea of 'proof' is what kept other folks who were not equipped to think for themselves believing that the earth was a flat disc at the center of the universe with the sun and moon revolving around it for millennium, and the 'proof' was that both sun and moon rose and fell at opposite horizons.
Ask whoever it may be that tells you what to believe to look at the EDS of these coins 'prior' to the clashes, and enlighten you.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
That is unnecessarily abrasive, zeewool. Contention is fine; contempt is not.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Quote:
That is unnecessarily abrasive, zeewool. How perceptive of you. It was indeed meant to be.... in reciprocation....'not' so perceptive of you, evidently. Quote:
Contention is fine; contempt is not. Do what you feel empowered to do then Dave, but spare me the lecture, despite the fact that it was short, to the point, and well worded. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
On empowerment: Lone Watie: We thought about it for a long time, "Endeavor to persevere." And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union.
Lone Watie: I didn't surrender, but they took my horse and made him surrender. They have him pulling a wagon up in Kansas I bet.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2797 Posts |
My enthusiasm thread hath morphed into things "less enthusiastic".  |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Please accept my sincere apology Nut. It was a good thread until I poisoned it. Sorry to you as well Oz, for your feeling the need to weigh in on my fall from grace. I am not Joan of Arc though.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I tell my friends when the going gets tough that if we all saw things the same way all of the time, I can assure you there would be no innovation or observation as everyone would get tired of looking.
From the movie: Men in Black. Fifteen hundred years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. 500 years ago, everybody "knew" that the earth was flat. And 15 minutes ago, you "knew" that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll "know" tomorrow. ~ Agent K (Tommy Lee Jones)
What makes vamming special is the forensics involved. This is a hobby that forces you to think. Think of this as a giant mosaic that is slowly being put together without a template to follow and no one really knows what it looks like at the end. There are a lot of preconceived premises that we are told to accept and yet in accepting them when we confront the inconsistencies of those premises we see that it isn't numismatic forensics at all at least not like we thought.
So many of us persevere on. We are letting the coins tell their stories and mighty fascinating stories they are.
Edited by Ozland
09/15/2010 3:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I do like the way you both speak and see things Terry, so the following is to see if you too will laugh at anything other than clashing as even a possibility:
I have noticed that these things seem to have the common characteristic of relativity to a device of high relief. The oblong effect, unlike that of a normal bubble, (or any device in the clash ring), I liken to a bubble bath experience. As I step or put pressure on a large bubble, the bubble (especially if held in place by some other object) will change shape from round to oblong before it will pop.
Annealing employs a technique of heating the metal to a certain temperature, insufficient heat will result in certain deficiencies in the metal or working with it, and excessive heat will cause other problems (like the increased formation of carbon bubbles). Cooling is also another aspect of annealing that must be controlled to produce desired results. Cooling too slowly will leave the metal softer than desired, while cooling too quickly will cause the surface and edges of the metal to become brittle. The 19th century mint had no temperature gauge to rely on but rather depended upon an experienced eye to judge temperature based on color of the steel. A certain shade of cherry red is what I have been told.
I envision this happening with an overheated die containing carbon bubbles near the surface prior to hubbing. The bubble is held in place by the density of the softened metal surrounding it. The downward pressure of the hub into the die may cause such a bubble displacement to take on such shape in a location where the device is at a high relief (the clash ring). Repeated annealing, hubbing, (as the hub sinks deeper into the die with each successive blow), may cause this oblong bubble to draw closer to the surface or even burst at the surface, or open when basining is employed. Another common factor that I notice that the oblong shape of the "ovaloid" is in 'parallel' proximity with the outline of the device. Where would be the area you might expect these bubble to rise in? (In close proximity to, and parallel with, the device applying downward pressure is my guess).
As for the notion of clashing, the effect on the coin is not indicative of the incuse relief a wreath tip, or anything else that I can imagine that would leave such a 'lone' depression in the die. Try lining anything up (with or without) rotation using the clash guide. Nothing fits the 'angle' of effect.
Also remember that the wreath (for instance) is a depression on the reverse die, not of raised design. Such a clash would not propagate a depression in the opposing die, it would leave a sharp edged outline of that wreath tip not dissimilar to any other die clash effect (with the exception of the letters transferable in the word LIBERTY as the headband is actually clashed rather than the letters).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
This is an area of research I am admittedly weak in. In my research of ovaloids, I refer to this: Observations by John Roberts- VAM attributor with ANACS This piece (1903-O VAM 4 A) (doubled 3, O set right, Ovaloid at neck) represents a new class of clashed die variety. The 'ovaloid' feature of the VAM-4A is a form of die failure associated with multiple clashing of dies. Many other clashed stage varieties exhibit this characteristic. Most, but not all, are already listed for letter transfer clashmarks. One of the most extreme examples of this type of die failure may be found on the late stages of the 'Clashed E' 1891-O, VAM-1A2 and 1A3. Careful examination of dollars with multiple clashes will almost certain lead to a number of new listings of a similar nature. This anomaly was first pointed out to me by Dr. Mark Kimpton. Few of the dates I have noted this characteristic on are as strong as the ovaloid on the obverse of this listing, most are more like the small one found on this reverse. A closer look is certainly warranted. I have a 1891-O VAM 1A3 clashed E with a ruptured field (ovaloid.) |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
While I have the utmost respect for the vampicker's expertise at VAM attribution, (he is tops in my book in that field), I think that he should be comfortable with that and stretch no further, as I have not been impressed with some of his earlier statements on cause and effect any more than I am with this one. What sort of incuse obverse device will leave such a depression as on this 1A2? And now this 'clash' is ruptured into a break on 1A3? Paaleezz. Does this 1A2 look even remotely like a clash (with 'anything' on the obverse) to you? |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Listen Terry, here is my beef with all of this clashing jazz in a nutshell. This notion of clashing (as well as many other causes to other coin features) are based on absolutely nothing. Nothing....but are pawned off on, and accepted by, the followers as 'fact'.
If I were to make a claim such as 'this was caused by clashing', I would first get large photos of both sides of the entire coin showing the "ovaloid" in the first photo. Find the center of the coin on these photos (both sides), take a simple compass and draw a circle (from pinpoint center of the coin) that intersects that "ovaloid". Without changing the setting on the compass, I would repeat the process on the other photo side of the coin. Now, I would have a circle that would intersect all possible clash points exactly (jsut in case rotation is involved). I would then feel free to find a feature that matches the "ovaloid" on the other side of the coin 'before' I play Pied Piper. Will I have success? That would depend on my degree of belief in the notion that an incuse device (depression) on one die will transfer as a depression on another die. I should remember that during a clash, the partial 'outline' of a device is what is transferred, not the device itself.
Are these "ovaloid" effects commensurate with the characteristics of other clashes? I could imagine that folks may think so if they had never seen the effects of clashing before, but for those who have, a bit of thinking might be in order.
So I ask this: exactly what feature is clashed to form this depression in the die?
That is what I thought.
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Replies: 118 / Views: 8,666 |
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Posted 09/14/2010 10:39 pm
