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 Replies: 31 / Views: 21,184 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
The marks are referred to as "chop marks" and were applied by asian merchants among others to the coins when they circulated in the orient.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Hi RealPeso and swamperbob, this was the first thread I read before I joined the forum. I appreciate both of your passions in investigating coins in such a deep level. It was this thread intrigued me to buy the same 1797 Mexico 8R and see I can learn some experience from it. For Chinese coins collectors, we have no such concept of 'Restrike' or 'Contemporary counterfeit' of such Mexican 8R, for me the following coin is likely original but it seems to be another piece of Boston type in accordance to swamperbob's assertions. swamperbob: can you give a help to comment on this coin? And for other who are interested in Spanish/South American 8R, do you possess an original of this type of coin so all of us can be benefit from comparing a real and a contemporary counterfeit. The following coin was bought in June from a British seller by GBP60.0. It weighs 26.83 grams, 39mm and      S.G.10.276 (equvalent to about 86.56% silver). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Henry - you say Quote:
For Chinese coins collectors, we have no such concept of 'Restrike' or 'Contemporary counterfeit' of such Mexican 8R, This sounds very odd to a US coin collector as well - I guess we really do not speak the same language.  Is that because in China the metal content is the most important determining factor about a coin being real or not? In the US the actual DATE of production is far more important - the metal content can be totally secondary. The SG is about perfect for the restrikes and the range is confirmed by many XRF tests. Just slightly low in silver content but within the tolerance that could not be detected using typical scales available in the 1850's to the Chinese schroffs. They were accurate to about one decimal place in SG or 7.5% plus or minus in silver content. So at about 87% silver the schroff's could not tell the difference between this coin and an original. The coin has the squared circles on the edge and some of the diagonal grip marks that identify "Boston" types as a part of the larger Class 2 series. The coin has too much wear to see any of the surface features on the faces of the coin. It would trade as an original coin for 99% of dealers I know. Only dealers exposed to my theory will ID the coin as a Bullion Restrike. I was reading just last night an old book on international economic policy in the 1890s and at that time it was estimated that China held approximately 2.2 billion dollars in Carolus and Mexican coins. (The author was concerned about silver price stability as a result of Chinese holdings). I also read that 10's of millions of Carolus dollars were still shipped per year as late as the 1870's and 1880's. So to ask a question - where would you get a Million Carolus dollars in 1880 (let alone 10 million)? The last Carolus dollar was made in 1808 - 72 years earlier.  Answer - YOU MADE THEM!  |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I love that ending :D Bob : can you tell me what's wrong with that one ? ( https://goccf.com/t/126327) - the edge looks OK to me, as well as the hole. |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Bob, I just said nowadays the coins collectors in Hong Kong or in mainland China don't read too frequent the historical books about coins so most of them don't know there were so many contemporary restrikes or Boston type as you described. They care about the coin is real (original) or not.
As you said "it would trade as an original coin for 99% of dealers", I believe 100% coin collectors in HK or China will buy this coin as an original.
Bob, there is another question, is it very difficult to find an origianl of this kind of coin? Is there any clear-cut difference between an original and a contemporary restrike? 'Squared circles on the edge' is sometimes difficult to say and sometimes subjective!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Henry - You say: Quote:
is it very difficult to find an origianl of this kind of coin? Is there any clear-cut difference between an original and a contemporary restrike? 'Squared circles on the edge' is sometimes difficult to say and sometimes subjective! The most definitive test is XRF - but that costs $50 per coin so it is right now prohibitive, but I expect with time it will become a bit less expensive. You may be right that 100% of collectors would buy the coin as an ORIGINAL but they would still be 100% wrong. A counterfeit is a counterfeit even if it can pass as real 99 times out of 100. Matthew - Which coin are you referring to? The link did not bring me to a specific location. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Bob, Mathieu (Honey Badger just buys what he wants?) was referring to that 1821 Zs from Coin stuart... the parenthesis SNAFUed it... https://goccf.com/t/126327Quote:
The most definitive test is XRF - but that costs $50 per coin so it is right now prohibitive, but I expect with time it will become a bit less expensive. Doesn't John give you a discount? :-> |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The problem with the 1821 is that I believe the coin may be a Sheffield plate. I see many clues that are usually seen on Sheffield coins.
I also own a worn version nearly identical with the long fore curl that is definitely a counterfeit.
On the edge specifically I see "appearent" grip marks along the edge design which could point to a one bar (one overlap coin). I am unable to locate two clear opposing laps on this coin. I think I see one near IND but nothing exactly opposite. I also see what I believe is a clear seam line for the silver edge ribbon along a large percentage of the perimeter of the reverse die. The line even is dostorted by post stike dings. (see directly above the X in REX).
Finally the segments in the edge were not punched into the edge die from a matrix block punch. The spacings and angles vary. The rectangles are at times trapezoids with the wide side toward the obv and at other times with the wide side toward the reverse.
The entire edge looks "odd".
The 1821 is the second most often forged date of all the portrait 8Rs behind the 1818.
As is always the case with two dimensional pictures - you can be fooled by the missing perspective. So I have toi allow for that. But I would look at this coin extra closely.
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New Member
Armenia
1 Posts |
Hi Everyone.   I bought it last month by 41 USD. It weighs 26.8 grams, 39mm in size and silver. Coin lightly polished, otherwise unimpaired. Seller sent me also certificate of authenticity as "America's First Silver Dollar" which he received buying it earlier from Washington Mint. What do you think about this coin? Is this genuine or counterfeit? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
This would have been a more appropriate thread to resurrect... regarding these pieces in the mass-marketed blue clamshells: http://goccf.com/t/97058#810062Genuine... but HEAVILY, ruinously polished beyond repair/healing. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I agree that the First Dollar coins are not much better than bullion. They are not lightly polished - they are buffed until there are no surfaces left intact.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1962 Posts |
Quote:
buffed until there are no surfaces left intact One day, I'm going to attempt (if I can safely, or at least w/minimum long-term damage... yeah, I looked at the eclipse) to see if nitric acid or some type of nitr- compound (several potions/methods are used) would be effective in etching some surface texture back onto such polished to death pieces. Crafty Etsy-seller types do this to etch lettering, some design, etc. onto wide bracelets and such. It would be useful considering all the Spanish Colonial material that gets shined up, um, real nice (if ya smell what the Brasso is cooking?) to sell to the unwashed masses. |
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Valued Member
Canada
321 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
The coin looks very good. Very little to suspect from the design. I can see only 2 of 20 points (my own system). Of course the edge design is not visible at all so half of the potential points were unable to be checked. Also, since PCGS does not yet test coins scientifically, it still might be a silver class 2 Counterfeit (restrike) made for the Chinese market. The best way to tell is to test the coin for the presence of gold. XRF could be used - except for the plastic tomb. So it is unlikely you can be 100% sure.
I would go with PCGS and at least you can try to hold them to their guarantee.
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Valued Member
Canada
321 Posts |
Ok, thank you very much its very appreciate !
For the coin, if I unslab it and I ship it for a XRF test and resubmit the coin after ( for an hypothetical resell and preservation ), it would cost me 90 to 100$ ( I'm from Canada ) for a 400$ only coin (Au-58).
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Replies: 31 / Views: 21,184 |
First Page
Posted 08/17/2012 08:43 am
