| Author |
 Replies: 22 / Views: 1,371 |
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
4561 Posts |
https://www.ebay.com/itm/196960311083I am trying to figure something out about graded toned coins, particularly Mercury dimes. Several times recently, I have had the impression that slabbed coins were not actually mint state at all. The coin above is a good example. I feel like there is considerable obverse wear on the hair and other high points. Is it possible that TPGs often grade a rainbow coin as MS even though it is circulated? In PCGS grading videos, the presenter says flat out that colorful toning can bump a coin an entire grade. Or is my eye for toned coins not sufficiently developed, and I am misinterpreting toning for wear?
|
|
|
|
Moderator
 United States
32987 Posts |
Adding pictures here so that we can continue to learn after the auction is taken down:   "If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
58586 Posts |
Looks okay to me.
Errers and Varietys.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
9792 Posts |
Quote:I am trying to figure something out about graded toned coins, particularly Mercury dimes. Several times recently, I have had the impression that slabbed coins were not actually mint state at all. The coin above is a good example. I feel like there is considerable obverse wear on the hair and other high points. What you are seeing here is the reality that coins in slabs are not graded by any legitimate and verifiable standards. The system is kep subjective b/c this way the companies can get paid more than once to grade the same coin. people crack out their coins and resubmit them (even to the same companies) trying to get a better grade (which can happen, or a worse grade can happen!). See the following which gives people an understanding of how the companies work and why it is not hard to find inconsistencies (at all!) https://www.coincommunity.com/colle...t-graded.asp
Edited by Earle42
01/21/2025 1:02 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4327 Posts |
This looks alright to me as well. Seems to be a weak strike with the lack of the horizontal bands and weakness on the outer lettering, that may be what you're seeing as wear. It would be fair to debate if that should have kept it lower than a 67, but it wouldn't knock it to AU. I'm sure the coin has exceptional luster in-hand which gives it a gem grade.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
4561 Posts |
 So the lack of detail on the hair, edge of the wing, and around the eye are just a weak strike and not wear? My brain is still telling me that this coin looks way more like the AU50 on the left and definitely not like the MS67 on the right. One of the reasons that I am asking is that a commonly stated property of heavy toning is that it conceals hairline scratches and other fine evidence of wear and cleaning.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7484 Posts |
That is a really weird looking shade of blue on the obverse. I guess NGC liked it when they saw it the 1st time. They might not like it as much now as they did back then. Looks like artificial toning to me.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5300 Posts |
It looks mint state to me, with perhaps some central strike weakness on the obverse. It's probably easier to determine that in hand if it has outstanding original mint luster that shows through the toning without any signs of a rub.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5585 Posts |
I had trouble defining "circulation wear" from "Die wear" at first too but it takes time to learn the difference.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Canada
5155 Posts |
Aside from a slightly weak strike , the coin
is in my opinion , spectacular.
Wonderful colour , great eye appeal .
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21639 Posts |
Always difficult to assess toned potentially very high grade coins above MS-65, from screen shots.
If you are confident of very accurate grading within your specialty, you should be grading all of your own coins, either selling or buying and not relying on the slab grade.
As the third party graders do, examine hand held, under ideal light conditions, with a 10x loupe, with coins that are potentially MS-65 or above.
Rely on slab grading if you are not confident enough to grade at this level.
Problem with toning (especially if toning is blotchy), is that it can hide very minor nicks and scratches, that may not be visible with on screen pics. Another problem with toning is that is is really a minor form of surface corrosion, which is not present with blast white full luster coins in high MS grades.
It is for this reason that I prefer non toned coins and will always choose them in the higher grades, if the occasion presents itself.
After all, that is how they appeared fresh from the coining press.
Edited by sel_69l
01/21/2025 8:09 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
Australia
585 Posts |
AT IMO
Watch your top knot
|
|
Valued Member
United States
411 Posts |
Agree with sel 691. The toning often hides minor abrasions and there may be corrosion issues as well.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3702 Posts |
I believe it is the combination of toning pattern and weak strike that you are mistaking as wear. If you consider luster when grading, you would see the Mercury dime matches the MS-67 much more than the AU-50. Luster is extremely important to consider when grading. Silver can use multiple elements to assist the toning process, for example sulfuric material and air circulation. When a coin is housed in a paper flip, the paper touches the high points of the design. This environment allows the fields and other design elements that are exposed to air to tone differently than the high points that are directly contacting the paper. I suppose that is the case for the OP dime. Suffering from bust half fever. Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: https://goccf.com/t/434955Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
6262 Posts |
I'd like to trust major TPGs unconditionally but based on years of experience that just isn't the case. I could accept that this coin is uncirculated although I'd have to look for complete, uninterrupted luster across fields and devices before I'd be really confident.
It's my understanding that strike quality doesn't officially affect grade until your reach gem levels, i.e. MS-65 and above. I don't care how attractive the toning is, for a coin with this much strike deficiency the maximum possible grade should be MS-65. The grader can throw a star or plus on the slab if they really like the eye appeal.
Maybe I'm just behind the times.....
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
4561 Posts |
The consensus seems to be that this is a weak strike but otherwise a mint state coin.
Since people have mentioned luster often in this conversation, I have a follow up question. Is it even possible to see luster on a coin this heavily toned? As Sel points out, toning is essentially very shallow corrosion. Wouldn't that dull the luster or occlude it entirely?
|
| |
Replies: 22 / Views: 1,371 |
Posted 01/21/2025 12:43 pm
