Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

It's Time To Stop Purchasing Raw Coins From Local Coin Shops

 
Next Page | Last Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 10
Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  02:10 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
So I've been cataloging my inventory of coins over the last week and realized that I got the short end of the stick on every raw coin purchased from local and regional coin shops.

So how does that happen? Is there a pattern?

Yes: Chronic overgrading.

There are only two excuses that a shop owner can claim. Both of which reflect poorly on the shop owner.
1) claim ignorance or
2) shop owner does it deliberately as part of his business strategy.

I believe number 2 is the case from my experiences. Most don't expect you to send coins in for grading. I do. And every time I've done it, the grade comes back 1 or 2 grades lower than what the shop owner claimed.

Thoughts?



Edited by MikeF
04/08/2018 02:55 am
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
10360 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  02:30 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thoughts?

Don't take a dealer's word for it as to grade. Grade it yourself.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius
"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain
My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  02:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for being master of the obvious, Spruett.

But I was hoping to get feedback on how widespread the overgrading strategy is.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16071 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  03:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I stopped buying raw coins, the growth of my collection would come to a sudden stop.

In perhaps 50 years of collecting, I have never bought a slabbed coin.

I have always ignored the LCS grading, and even for public auction, and made my own grading assessment, before deciding to buy.

Fortunately for me, the Third Party Grading industry is nowhere as strong in Australia, as it is in America.
Therefore, the availability of slabbed coins is much less.
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
10360 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  03:15 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I was hoping to get feedback on how widespread the overgrading strategy is.


I would say maybe somewhat wide, give or take. It depends.

That's being the Master of Ambiguity.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius
"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain
My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Edited by spruett001
04/08/2018 03:18 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1249 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  04:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chesterb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think it's pretty wide spread but to be honest I never recall looking at the grade the coin shop says on the 2x2. I look at the price he's asking and decide for myself whether it's a fair price for what I grade it. If you're relying on the LCS for grading potential purchases then you'll come on the short end of the stick every time.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2850 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  07:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I generally take the view of @chesterb.

But I have a question:


Quote:
And every time I've done it, the grade comes back 1 or 2 grades lower than what the shop owner claimed.


So a claimed XF "raw" would come back an F or a VF? Or a claimed MS 66 would come back MS65 or 64? I assume the latter case since I am sure that you could tell an XF from a VF.

I think that there is a fair bit of over-grading, which is why I am very careful when there is a huge price difference between one grade and the next.

Given human nature, there would always be at least a subconscious desire to see a higher grade and a higher price.

That being said, there are many dealers who grade fairly.

Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
2287 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  07:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add solotime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the local coin shops by me, the old guy is trying to ask a premium for his self graded coins.
He has coins self graded from MS-63 till about MS-67 and asking like $15 above grey sheet value.
Edited by solotime
04/08/2018 07:56 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
655 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ron6788 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unless you are personal friends with a dealer, I don't think you'll ever get a "fair deal," buying or selling. (Sorry, to the dealers out there.) From my experience, mostly selling to them, they would consistently undergrade my stuff and then still underprice it for that grade.

For instance, I once sold a large size note, w/o a crease, to Stacks in NYC. The dealer insisted it was a VF and, to give you some indication of the state of affairs, his was the best offer I got!

I generally stick with slabbed stuff these days, Mike, to avoid this problem. I also prefer buying & selling via no-reserve auctions where I feel the prices would truly reflect the state of the collecting world.
Valued Member
United States
280 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pistareen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I learned to grade coins from ANA standards and Photograde which will help you throughout your collecting career. If you can correctly determine the grade down to two possibilities my rule is that if I own it the higher of the two grades is what I claim, and if you own it the lower of the two is what I use as my filter for determining price. Always grade the coin and ignore the holder. I prefer raw coins for ease of storage. Why would you want a coin in a holder that incorrectly overgrades the coin, other than to sell it to someone who doesn't know how to grade? Grade inflation at TPGs over the years makes all holders grades just a matter of opinion. Exercise your own.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  08:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
So a claimed XF "raw" would come back an F or a VF?


No no no, a claim of xf-45 comes back as a 35 or 40.

I've always hated dealing with local coin shops. So I avoid purchasing coins from them unless the coin has beautiful eye appeal.

But in every instance, when I send the coin in for grading they have always came back a point or two under.

That guy in Oklahoma that I purchased my raw 72 sld from, swore up and down that the coin was au-53. Even after I showed him graded examples of Seated dollars from my collection that supporting my thesis that the coin was xf-45. He budged some on price, but after agreeing to send the coin in for grading, he slow-played me for months before he shipped the coin to NGC.

When it came back as xf-45, he made no offer to make it right. Quite frankly, after the 3 month ordeal, I was just happy to have the coin back in my possession.

Begs the question: Should shop owners be held accountable in these situations?
Edited by MikeF
04/08/2018 08:29 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
727 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  08:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TPG's make mistakes. Their grades and attributions are just opinions also. Here is an 1804 1/2 cent being sold on eBay that PCGS attributed as a C-11, when in fact it is a C-9. Anyone familiar with 1/2 cents can spot this mistake in 30 seconds.

At least with the local coin shop, you are actually getting a coin for your money, and not just an opinion. (Which right or wrong, is all you are getting from the TPG)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1804-Drape...AOSw7wxayShY

Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MikeF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you're missing the point, Phil. I see this as strategy that local coin shops use on a regular basis in hopes that their customers don't send coins in for grading.

Here's another example from a coin shop in Wichita KS. If I really wanted to get medieval, I would name names.





Pillar of the Community
United States
533 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jcook54 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good topic. I just assumed that dealers would try to buy coins for the lowest price possible and sell them for the most. The gent at my local shop has prices on his coins but always gives me a "discount" whenever I buy one. i.e. He'll charge me $50 for a coin priced at $56.00. Honestly, I overpay for coins all the time if I'm going by greysheet values alone. I buy because I want to add them to my collection and don't mind paying a premium.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1735 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  09:15 am  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Unless you are personal friends with a dealer, I don't think you'll ever get a "fair deal," buying or selling. (Sorry, to the dealers out there.) From my experience, mostly selling to them, they would consistently undergrade my stuff and then still underprice it for that grade.


What exactly is a 'Fair deal' to you then? Is it purchasing at a price where you can immediately turn a large profit? Or is it sold at a price where the actual market dictates it should be sold at?

I consider myself a dealer who gives 'Fair deals', but my prices reflect the actual market. If you are looking for a 'steal', you generally won't find one. However, the reason my prices are the way they are, is because I sell coins at that those prices.

At the NH coin expo last weekend, I had a guy came in right at the beginning of the show and wanted 5 of the nicer pieces I had, however, he kept lowballing, in fact on most of them, offering much below what I had paid buying! He got frustrated and started telling me I didn't know the market for world coins, I was trying to be a museum and wouldn't sell anything, ect, ect. By the end of the show, 4 of the 5 pieces he was interested in were sold, at my prices.

My point is that guy who came to my table would truly believe I did not offer 'fair deals', yet, he would be objectively wrong.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3385 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2018  09:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think where it does occur, they are trying to support higher pricing.

Like the others have said, I grade them myself, ignoring their grade and then say "what can you do on this 1853 Seated whatever here? (fill in the coin here)". The other term I like is "do you have any room on this one...". Same approach at shows.

If their price gets to my price, we got a deal. If not, I move on. If I can't find a coin at the price I want after looking for awhile, I adjust my expectations of price upwards. I have had some conversations where it will say to a shop owner "you're at 64, I'm at 63 - I can't go 64 money on that coin". They usually shake their head and say "yeah, I get it".

I've had a couple of shops where I have observed what you say and I just don't really go back. I have one shop where the guy always throws out good prices to me and so for coins I have bought at shops, most have come from his place.
Page: of 10 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.44 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05