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 Replies: 19 / Views: 1,193 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
... so, if I spent a new coin with a merchant, who, then, punched his initials into the coin, exchanged it with another merchant, who, then, punched his initials into the coin's surface, who, then, exchanged the coin with another merchant, who, then, punched his initials into the coin's surface, ... would one expect a grading service to declare the coin "MS61"  ... ... just asking for a friend ...  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11912 Posts |
PCGS determined that chop marks aren't circulation. A simple way to deal with this issue, if you disagree with this assessment, is to not purchase chop marked coins in straight graded holders. If enough people agree with you, TPGs may change course. Personally, chop marks are an interesting part of coinage and commercial history. A practical way to a quickly assess the authenticity and silver content of a coin and historical evidence of a flourishing inter-continental trade of goods.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
12/27/2023 5:26 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1780 Posts |
...Hi, there Numis ... I do disagree with PCGS... ...I've collected chopped coins, mainly Spanish cobs, for quite a while , &, as do you, find them interesting & an integral part of commercial history ... ...I guess my point here is that the coin is obviously circulated ... I find humorous that PCGS determines, arbitrarily, that a circulated coin is uncirculated ... realizing, of course that it's just an opinion, but, none the less, technically, an incorrect conclusion ... MS is Mint State, & those chops weren't added at the mint...lol... (my avatar)  Edited by mrwiskers
12/27/2023 6:15 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
NGC takes the position that chop marks are damage and they grade the coin Details chop mark. The chop mark was used as a method to authenticate the silver content in the coin. The Chinese merchant was not interested in the US coin only the silver content. With the punch the Chinese merchant could tell the hardness of the metal and view the silver after the punch was used. The Trade dollar was never intended for circulation, but the coins did end up in circulation because of unscrupulous US business men were trading in raw silver to the mint that had less value than a dollar value and getting a Trade dollar to pay their employees It appears that PCGS has a limit on the grade that a chop mark Trade dollar can achieve as the highest grade awarded to date is a MS64. When PCGS does grade the Trade dollar, they note on the holder if applicable, chop mark. The chop mark is part of the Trade dollar history, and I do like the way that PCGS grades the Trade dollar. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
...again, I agree that chopmarks are interesting, a part of history, etc., etc. etc. ... I know what purpose that they served ... but ... chopping a coin & passing it along is circulation ... historically interesting or not ... and, in my most humble opinion ... PCGS is wrong ...
Edited by mrwiskers
12/27/2023 6:40 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10047 Posts |
Because the grading companies use absolutely nothing verifiable and no scientific standards to assign a grade. The grade is subjective based only upon what the graders who see it that day call it as being. This is also why the profitable re-slabbing aspect of the business exists as it does. If they would use something verifiable then they would lose a lot of money.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36901 Posts |
Earle42 excellent response. I have never believed a coin with chop marks would classify as an MS coin. Those are blatant signs that it did circulate.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
75082 Posts |
This should of gotten the details grade. Errers and Varietys.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3477 Posts |
Quote:
the grading companies use absolutely nothing verifiable and no scientific standards to assign a grade Are there verifiable scientific standards for the grading of coins? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
I suppose it's because "uncirculated" is a subjective statement of the coin's condition and not adhering to the strict definition of uncirculated. Even then it's a stretch, since a chopmarked coin is not in the condition that it was in when it left the mint. I mean, MS literally means mint state. Nothing screams "I circulated" quite like a chopmark. It's kinda funny that they also put it as a variety. I guess it's beneficial to have a numerical grade. I note that PCGS also MS straight-grades the Canadian JOP counterstamped dollars as a variety. I found a 1935 graded MS66. Pretty much the same thing as the Trade dollars. JOP did it specifically to promote circulation. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1780 Posts |
...There, fixed it...   Edited by mrwiskers
12/28/2023 06:59 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18717 Posts |
 perfect |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
My, such cynicism!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
The MS designation by the TPG's means no circulated wear not that the coin's condition is mint state, for example, MS60 Details cleaned by ANACS, UNC Details cleaned by both NGC and PCGS. PCGS is not breaking new ground by adding a number grade to coins with issues. There are a lot of collectors that collect Trade dollars by chop mark. It is difficult to put a set together of Trade dollars by date and mint mark with chop marks. PCGS to capitalize on this market added grading numbers to the chop marks to make it competitive in their registry sets for coins with chop marks. Some chop marks will make the coin value increase and some chop marks will make the coin value decrease depending on rarity of chop marks. I pick up this 1874 S MS63 chop mark for about 1K under a straight grade without chop marks. Do I consider it a straight graded coin? No. Do I like the chop marks on the coin? Yes  Edited by Slider23
12/28/2023 10:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4471 Posts |
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Replies: 19 / Views: 1,193 |
Posted 12/27/2023 6:11 pm
