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Replies: 26 / Views: 6,222 |
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Valued Member
United States
212 Posts |
Not sure if this is the right forum, but my question is pretty general. Why do proofs, even ones given high grades by TPG's, have relatively low resale value? This is a question that's been on my mind since I first got into coins, learned what proofs were, and the surprising truth about their resale value, but have never asked about it. I mean we're talking about coins minted in relatively scarce numbers and with a process designed for maximum beauty, so why is a high-grade business strike of the same year typically more valuable than the proof one? To be clear, I'm not asking if anyone here prefers proofs; I'm sure such collectors exist, but they are obviously the outliers or demand would manifest in market values.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3486 Posts |
Look at the populations reports. More proofs are ordered from the Mint than business strikes. ==> Less business strikes available in the secondary market.
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Moderator
 Australia
16806 Posts |
I would say a large factor is that proofs attract very little investor interest. Therefore, most of the people who buy proof coins are collectors. Most collectors who want proof coins, buy them at the time of issue directly from the mint that makes them. So there's very little secondary-market demand for them.
Another related aspect is the original selling price: for far too many mints and mint products, the original selling price is simply too darn high. I don't know what it's like over there in the States, but here in Australia, both the RAM and Perth Mints charge extreme premiums on proof coins. Proof silver 1 ounce bullion coins typically cost $100-$120, for example. Proof coins should have a mark-up to reflect the extra work that goes into making them, but a 200%-500% markup is ridiculous. The lower secondary market value immediately upon release probably reflects a more accurate value in terms of what the coins should have originally been priced at.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4085 Posts |
I think there are a number of dealers who will buy large numbers of sets from the mint, look to cherry pick the best coins hoping for high TPG grades and then dump the remaining sets for what they can get for them.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7933 Posts |
Not enough people want them.
Econ 101.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8137 Posts |
Quote: Not enough people want them.
Econ 101.  . Every dealer in the US has one (if not many more) boxes of proof sets that they can't sell. The market is so saturated that dealers will sell them below bid just to get rid of them.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7375 Posts |
Proofs are meant to be high grade. Much more variability in MS coins, therefore higher value in higher grade coins.
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Valued Member
 United States
212 Posts |
I think the last sentence in my post demonstrates that I get the "Econ 101" concept that there is less demand for them; I guess I'm trying to get at the root of WHY. Why are they less popular when they're objectively "prettier"? --I do mean good proofs with good strikes, not something like the 1960's ones that look like spray-painted plastic, but you know, well-struck ones with deep white cameos on black mirror fields. Matthewvincent--I'm not sure I understand your comment about the numbers of orders from the mints. You don't have to buy a mint set to find upper-60's grade business strike coins of a given year; there's at least one in every few new rolls available at your local bank.
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CCF Master Historian of USA Commemoratives
 United States
12253 Posts |
@Kawliga: Proof coins are specifically made for collectors - they are struck with specially-prepared dies and planchets, are handled very carefully and are packaged/encapsulated at the Mint. In short, most are perfect (or nearly so). The vast majority of modern-day proofs will grade PF-69 or 70. As a result, there is always an ample supply of the coins on the market for collectors who are interested.
In contrast, business strike coins are not typically handled with any special level of care during production at the Mint. You've noted that a high-grade business strike coin can be found "in every few new rolls available at your local bank." So, if the rolls are cent rolls and have 50 coins in each, your example suggests one high-grade coin in every 150 to 200 coins or < 1%! Compare that to the > 95% of proof coins that are high grade when delivered and you can begin to see that the supply of business strike coins is relatively low and thus would naturally drive a higher price among collectors.
Collecting history one coin or medal at a time! (c) commems. All rights reserved.
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Valued Member
 United States
212 Posts |
I definitely get what you're saying, but consider the math this way: Look at the 2018 Roosevelt dime, just for a random, recent example. There were only 500k proofs minted, while Denver and Philadelphia minted a total of over 2 BILLION. Even if only one out of every thousand was selected for its' flawlessness by a collector and put into a flip, that would be 2 million, four times as many potentially high-grade business strikes as proofs. But now that I'm looking at these numbers, it seems that they used to make a lot more proofs (1-3 million in recent-moderns of all denominations) and they just started putting the brakes on in the past few years. Now THAT is interesting, like maybe they're trying to increase their collecting value by lowering supply? Or am I misundersanding how it works, like they continue minting them after the year is passed?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
7933 Posts |
Quote: I think the last sentence in my post demonstrates that I get the "Econ 101" concept that there is less demand for them; I guess I'm trying to get at the root of WHY. Why are they less popular when they're objectively "prettier"? It's a good question that I can't answer. Maybe they are too perfect ... Collectors want to hunt for the best coin at the best price. Proofs take away one dimension of that equation.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5238 Posts |
There is certainly no difficulty finding a PRF 69-they are pretty much all at least that (if they were not, the mint is not doing their job).
As I understand ms-66 and higher are much harder to find. Even though there are 2 billion issued for circulation, how many are MS 69?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7273 Posts |
I generally collect classic coins and in some classics (like the V nickels and IHC), a proof is actually cheaper than a high MS Circulation strike and all I can figure out is that Proofs are designed for collectors so many are saved, while the circulation strike is designed to be spent so few are saved. And the average person will collect the circulation strikes but not the proofs. I would assume that proofs are collected by specialized/advanced/having more money collectors hence there are fewer people looking for a proof than for a circulated coin. Hence while there are fewer proofs there are fewer people that collect them, hence they have a lower value. As to whether this us true or not, I can't say.Just my perception.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8137 Posts |
Quote: maybe they're trying to increase their collecting value by lowering supply? This is not how it works. Proof sets are minted to demand, so the lower mintages are because people are buying less sets. Newer proof sets have more coins in them (Native American Dollar, ATB Quarters, Presidential dollars, etc.) than the older sets do, thus the issue price is higher.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21786 Posts |
Mints are trying to make their profits as well. (Just like any other business). Therefore, they sell them at the highest price they think they can get. Actually, this applies to all newly made Mint product.
That is why, if you like this sort of thing, it is better to buy in the numismatic aftermarket. Even so, re-sell profits after purchase in the numismatic aftermarket years later, can be very slim to strongly negative.
If there is no demand, the silver bullion price, even with proof coins, is the best you can hope for. Silver stackers love this sort of situation, where they can buy proof silver coins at a bullion price.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10029 Posts |
Here is an older collectors idea on all of this. When I was a kid, communications were not as instantaneous as today. Getting a new coin for the album meant either making a trip to the local coin shop (if you had one - urban areas only), finding one in change, or waiting a whole month for the next issue of your favorite coin magazine so you could check the lists and mail order them. We won't mention Littleton. The hobby was mainly all about the anticipation of hunting for and thrill of finding (you hoped) hole fillers from change/circulation. Regular issue coins is what it was all about. And since there was no eBay-instantaneous-buy-it-now full collection of (let's say) Franklin half dollars at your cell-phone-dancing-fingertips 24/7, the hunt to complete your album/set was what it was all about for most people. Plus the makers of those "little holes" rarely ever included (if at all) holes for proof issues. Why were no proof issues included in the albums? Again, the mindset seemed more to be that a "complete set" was made of "regular coins" anyone had a chance of finding in circulation. Since proofs were just the mint showing how perfect they could make a coin, proofs were not normal coins and certainly were just extras not to be confused with being a part of the "actual" (album-hole-defined) set. Had Whitman made holes for proofs, things may have been different. But, then again, maybe not. Some other company may have become dominant that "knew" it was taboo to break coins out of a proof set (more on this later). Think of typical car - normal coins. Think of curb feelers on a car (dating myself) - proof coins - not standard issue. Just like an awful lot of collectors are afraid to crack a coin out of a slab, back in those days no one would be crazy enough to break apart an officially packaged, "US Government Mint Proof Set." After all, the marketers made sure we were aware proofs were incredibly special coins being of the highest possible quality, and (a big point here) no human hand had ever touched them! A handled proof coin violated this no-touchy rule and stripped the coin of its sacred status/value. Proofs were a world apart from what went into our "complete" album sets. Another point is proofs lacked the fundamental thing which keeps hobbies alive: the thrill of the hunt to bag something special. Anyone could have a proof by throwing money at them, however not everyone had found a 1932-S quarter... yet! I think the old stigma of proof coins only being a sideline special issue kept the prices low when the internet appeared. As the newer generation has come along, they see tons of proofs online for very little money. Hence the lower mintage eye candy coins are seen as having no real value to them. Albums with proof holes are more well known now, but the vast majority still don't have those holes. So except for a few special sets for eye candy, few people still want the proofs. Admittedly the idea that a complete set is one from regular issue coins (with a few exceptions) is so deeply ingrained in me that I don't go after proofs. I make an exception on Ikes and Kennedy halves simply b/c, for some reason, I just want them.
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Replies: 26 / Views: 6,222 |